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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#631

Post by segasaturn »

iforgot22 wrote: post #597
Austiiiiii wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to do so. If America is forced to use only the clunky corporate-owned American AI at a fee, we'll very quickly fall behind competitors worldwide who use DeepSeek models to produce better results for much, much cheaper. Not to mention it'd defeat the whole purpose of a "free market" economy. (Not that that means much of anything anymore)

The Nvidia export restrictions also might be shooting us in the foot too, or at least Nvidia. They really benefit from CUDA remaining the de facto standard.

The Nvidia export restrictions have already harmed Nvidia. Deepseek-R1 is efficient on compute and was trained on old, obsolete cards because they couldn't get ahold of Nvidia's most cutting edge tech, so they were forced to innovate instead of just brute-forcing performance with faster cards. That has directly resulted in Nvidia's stock crashing over the last week.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#633

Post by TZubiri »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #623
bilekas wrote: post #95

> “It’s also extremely hard to rally a big talented research team to charge a new hill in the fog together,” he added. “This is the key to driving progress forward.” Well I think DeepSeek releasing it open source and on an MIT license will rally the big talent. The open sourcing of a new technology has always driven progress in the past. The last paragraph too is where OpenAi seems to be focusing their efforts.. > we…

Actually the "our IP" argument is ridiculous. What they are doing is stealing data from all over the web, without people's consent for that data to be used in training ML models. If anything, then "Open"AI should be sued and forced to publish their whole product. The people should demand knowing exactly what is going on with their data. Also still an unresolved issue is how they will ever comply with a deletion reque…

If there's any litigation, a counterclaim would be interesting. But DeepSeek would need to partner with parties that have been damaged by OpenAI's scraping.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#635

Post by baal80spam »

liendolucas wrote: post #304

Could this have been carefully orchestrated? Could DeepSeek have devised this strategy a year ago and implemented knowing that they would be able to benefit from OpenAI models and a possible Nvidia market cap fall? Or is it just way too much to come up with about such a move?

In theory, it could. This is a quant-fund after all, they know stuff.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#637

Post by mongol »

tensor wrote: post #398
Buttons840 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a some Europeans hoping that the US would ban DeepSeek, because then there would be less traffic interfering with their own DeepSeek queries. The US can ban all they want, but if the rest of the world starts preferring Chinese social media, Chinese AI, and Chinese websites in general, the US is going to lose one of its crown jewels. The way the US behaves is a problem and makes a lot of people prefer alternativ…

I've recently cancelled my Github Copilot subscription and now use Mistral. When the US starts threatening allies with tariffs or invasion, using US services becomes a major business risk.

Not only a business risk. It also becomes a moral imperative to avoid if you can. Don't support bullies, is my motto. It can be hard to completely avoid, but it is important to try.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#639

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

znpy wrote: post #626
Imnimo wrote: post #320

I think there's two different things going on here: "DeepSeek trained on our outputs and that's not fair because those outputs are ours, and you shouldn't take other peoples' data!" This is obviously extremely silly, because that's exactly how OpenAI got all of its training data in the first place - by scraping other peoples' data off the internet. "DeepSeek trained on our outputs, and so their claims of replicating…

This really got me thinking that open ai should have no ip claim at all, since all their outputs and stuff are basically a ripoff of the entire human knowledge and IPs of various kinds.

The law and common sense often are at odds.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#640

Post by zombiwoof »

Imnimo wrote: post #504
riantogo wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it cast any doubt? If you can use o1 output to build a better R1. Then use R1 output to build a better X1... then a better X2.. XN, that just shows a method to create better systems for a fraction of the cost from where we stand. If it was that obvious OpenAI should have themselves done. But the disruptors did it. It hindsight it might sound obvious, but that is true for all innovations. It is all good stuf…

I think it would cast doubt on the narrative "you could have trained o1 with much less compute, and r1 is proof of that", if it turned out that in order to train r1 in the first place, you had to have access to bunch of outputs from o1. In other words, you had to do the really expensive o1 training in the first place. (with the caveat that all we have right now are accusations that DeepSeek made use of OpenAI data -…

Exactly. They piggybacked of lots of compute and used less. There still is a total sum of a massive amount of compute
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