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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#631

Post by Symbiote »

kar5pt wrote: post #454
TheCapeGreek wrote: post #71

I usually refrain from making much political commentary. I will say this: SA is a deeply troubled country, but for once I think the ruling government has actually done a good thing by pursuing this.

Have you read through their case? It's pretty weak in my opinion. They seem to think that any war with a high number of casualties and insufficient humanitarian aid counts as genocide. By their standard the US committed "genocide" against Japan in WW2, arguably Germany too.

> By their standard the US committed "genocide" against Japan in WW2, arguably Germany too.

Germany, yes? That's the primary example of genocide in the 20th century.

"The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II." (First sentence of Wikipedia.)

(I think widespread bombing of cities is a different crime.)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#632

Post by alexisread »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #605
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

Yes, that is exactly what Israel should do. The "dont let gazans interact with Israelis" strategy was icnredibly effective until Israel got soft on border security. Israel easily is capable of ensuring no Gazans ever escape again. The iron dome is largely succesful at keeping Israelis safe, certainly more so than a long term gazan invasion which would open up the Israelis in gaza to terrorist attacks.

"dont let gazans interact with Israelis" is exactly the definition of apartheid though, unless you're advocating recognising Palestine, and giving them autonomy wrt water, electricity and so on. However the comment "ensuring no Gazans ever escape again." Is rather telling, it implies a recognition that Gaza is effectively a prison - dehumanisation like that fosters this sort of conflict, so really this sort of attitude is far less helpful than say learning from lessons in Japan and Germany post WW2, South Africa post-apartheid and so on.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#633

Post by HDThoreaun »

mderazon wrote: post #628
HDThoreaun wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is exactly what Israel should do. The "dont let gazans interact with Israelis" strategy was icnredibly effective until Israel got soft on border security. Israel easily is capable of ensuring no Gazans ever escape again. The iron dome is largely succesful at keeping Israelis safe, certainly more so than a long term gazan invasion which would open up the Israelis in gaza to terrorist attacks.

I think you have a slight misconception about living under Iron Dome. It's not 100% effective and you still have to run to the nearest shelter. In some areas close to Gaza, you have less than 10 seconds to run to the shelter. So I wouldn't consider that "normal life" by any standards

There are no 100% effective solutions here. Ive spent a considerable amount of time in Israeli and realize living under the iron dome isnt ideal, but it is the best Israel can do. Long term occupation would lead to more Israeli deaths than a return to the pre october 7th status quo. The only other solution for israel is a legitimate genocide of all Palestinians, and I just dont see that happening in the next century.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#634

Post by MeImCounting »

hayst4ck wrote: post #615
MeImCounting wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US Government continues to employ militarized forces to suppress Indigenous resistance to this very day.

Does it? I am open to believing this, but I have not heard it. Can you link to examples?

There are a variety of examples but the most recent ones relate to high profile pipeline protests. These protests have by and large been about and on land that was illegally annexed. These lands are by and large guaranteed by treaties that have since been illegally broken. Militarized forces from private security forces to federal agencies have been involved in the suppression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Access_Pipeline_protest...

Less recent examples include the violence surrounding the AIM movement in the early 60s and 70s. Protesters have been unjustly imprisoned for decades. There was violence from federal agencies on multiple occasions throughout the time period when AIM was most unified and active.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Movement

Shockingly to many people forced sterilization continued well into the 70s as well, which fits the definition of attempted genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_of_Native_Americ...

There are more examples but these are the most documented and high profile.

It is a social war more than a material one. Residential school policy is an example of this. You may have heard the phrase "kill the indian, save the man". This is a policy of longterm cultural genocide and erasure.

Edit: I also forgot to mention another example which is the passive acceptance of the very high rates of missing and murdered indigenous women. The lack of investigation from federal authorities who are supposed to have jurisdiction over these things implies tacit acceptance of the systematic murder of vulnerable indigenous people.

https://mmiwusa.org/

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#635

Post by Symbiote »

genman wrote: post #619
AdamH12113 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... the Jewish state... its people experienced... This is your error. States and peoples are not unitary entities with a single coherent outlook and will. The vast majority of the Israeli population is far too young to have directly experienced the Holocaust, which ended 80 years ago. There are plenty of people in Israel who do not want to commit atrocities against Palestinians. There are also people who feel that…

[flagged]

If we're going back, you should also remember the attacks Israel has made against Palestine since 1948.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#636

Post by runarberg »

w0mbat wrote: post #610
hypeit wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

[flagged]

So are there 6 million Stateside Puerto Ricans living in one of the 50 United States who have equal rights to other US citizens. Puerto Rico is still a colony of the United States. Mind you that the Puerto Ricans living on the island of Puerto Rico have infinitely more rights then Palestinians living in the occupied West Bank or occupied East Jerusalem.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#637

Post by nojvek »

mderazon wrote: post #630
anon84873628 wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

This is looking at the conflict from western eyes. Religious fundamentalists don't think like that

We could have said this about Germany and Japan after WWII.

Every human no matter their race and religion cares about having food, water, safety, opportunity, live in a law abiding society where their rights are respected and they get “some” choice to vote for their future.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#638

Post by HDThoreaun »

alexisread wrote: post #632
HDThoreaun wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is exactly what Israel should do. The "dont let gazans interact with Israelis" strategy was icnredibly effective until Israel got soft on border security. Israel easily is capable of ensuring no Gazans ever escape again. The iron dome is largely succesful at keeping Israelis safe, certainly more so than a long term gazan invasion which would open up the Israelis in gaza to terrorist attacks.

"dont let gazans interact with Israelis" is exactly the definition of apartheid though, unless you're advocating recognising Palestine, and giving them autonomy wrt water, electricity and so on. However the comment "ensuring no Gazans ever escape again." Is rather telling, it implies a recognition that Gaza is effectively a prison - dehumanisation like that fosters this sort of conflict, so really this sort of attitu…

Gaza absolutely is a prison. Keeping Gazans there is the only way to ensure Israelis safety. Is that unfair? Absolutely, but I dont think Israelis are especially interested in fairness here, theyre interested in their security. You cant compare Gaza to post ww2 countries. Gaza has no economy, and a vastly different culture. There is no path toward peace between gaza and Israel. Not even on the 1000 year time span, because that would require gazan quality of life to improve, and they just dont have the land or resources for that to happen.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#640

Post by ajsnigrutin »

ken47 wrote: post #611

I wish politics articles wouldn't make it to the top page of Hacker News. There's already enough political discussion in a million other places.

A agree about this topic, but "technical"-politics (=tech related) should still belong here (eg. EU vs Apple, EU vs encryption, etc.). After all, who else than us nerds can understand the topic, and discuss it without the "only pedos need e2e encryption, if you are not a pedo, what are you hiding?".
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