Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

631–640 of 730 posts

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#631

Post by beowulfey »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

I agree completely but wanted to add a fourth point, which is that college is a necessary stepping stone for most professional sports.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#632

Post by jasmer »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

If we're going to be cynical, then #4, the most common, which is 'post-secondary perfunctory education' basically 'advanced high school' which society 'expects' people to perform.

Someone pointed out the legitimacy of learning and expanding one's horizons, kind of the 'ideal' which I suggest does happen in most circumstances.

But #4 is the most common. 'It's the thing the upper 1/3 have to do'. So you half blindly pick a thing, and then get through it.

That said, not only do we need more 'apprenticiships' - we need more such professionalization in the white collar world as well, and the processs should be more organized. Like Germany.

I say this with not an ounce of envy, but the Ivy League cartels need to be broken up. There is way too much that we put into that symbol, it's just to momentus, it weighs like a finger on the scale and creates a kind of unhealthy elitism.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#633

Post by DeathArrow »

It's probably not a a popular opinion but I think my formal CS training in University mean a lot for what I know and what I do as a software engineer. Not having that formal education would mean a lot to of holes in my knowledge and being less able to understand and derive relationships between lots of concepts.

You can learn from books, from articles, from tutorials, from MOOCS, from boot camps, from apprenticeships but my conjecture is that is not enough. You will miss a more ample view of the field and lots of concepts.

And going through a formal education doesn't mean you don't have access to alternative education. Beside my CS degree program I've learned from as many sources as I could.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#634

Post by InCityDreams »

wootland wrote: post #3

I wish it were easier to get a visa and move to another country without a degree. As someone without a degree, that's been the most annoying issue. The best parts are: not having student loans and not having a mindset that grinding within "the system" leads to success.

But where are you, where would you like to move to?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#635

Post by Pamar »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #544
rootusrootus wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis. It's amazing that now we're getting hit from both directions in this regard. The left would like minorities treated with kid gloves, and now the right wants to muzzle schools that would say anything critical…

Culture is a shared fiction of unity and greatness that enables great civilizations to overcome otherwise inevitable tribal warfare. So Native Americans and Pilgrims sat down together for a Thanksgiving feast with Turkey and mashed potatoes. Should we teach this to children despite there being more to the story? Well it depends, do we want descendants of Pilgrims and Native Americans to sit down for a Thanksgiving fe…

"But by then they will develop good habits like striving for individual equal treatment over tribalism."

Do you think there is absolutely no "tribalism" right now, in the public debate?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#636

Post by OJFord »

cutler wrote: post #614
OJFord wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, as cousin Melchior put it, 'anything other than a first or a fourth is wasted'. ( Brideshead Revisited - Evelyn Waugh. Not sure how internationally read it is, but a worthwhile classic. British degrees are classified from firsts to thirds (via upper and lower second class honours) - but the story is (initially) set at Oxford, which at the time awarded fourths.)

The BBC's serialisation of Brideshead, starring Jeremy Irons (Charles Ryder), Diana Quick and Anthony Andrews, was a huge hit with students when it aired in October 1981. The TV room in the Students Union was full every Sunday throughout the whole series. As for Charles's cousin Melchior John Gielgud, who played Charles's father, delivered some classic lines including this rejoinder to Charles's request for a loan -…

Seconded, and now you say it I'm wondering if the line I quoted might actually be (only) from the series. The book is excellent, but it's not so funny, or with such snappy dialogue (of course, really, of course TV writers have to add that sort of thing).

'[Puts book down, objecting to Charles also occupying himself] I do think you might talk to me - I've had a very exhausting day. Entertain me. Take me out of myself.'

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#637

Post by OJFord »

obscur wrote: post #617
cperciva wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I think the top 1/3 of Oxford undergrads are on par with the top 5% of Harvard undergrads. This is not true of other places which award Firsts.

Your first sentence is interesting, why do you think that?

I got a 2:1 from Imperial, guess what I think is on par with top 5% at Harvard ;)

I'm only kidding, but more seriously it's certainly not all equal, and few are really in a position to compare any two, nevermind several - it's a bit of a joke that we then make 'a 2:1 in an engineering or related subject' or 'at least 3.5 GPA' or whatever a requirement as though the institution and cohort doesn't make a difference at all.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#638

Post by TylerE »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #628
TylerE wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

95? I have never seen that. 10 point seems to be the most common (A=90+).

At my school, 90, 91, and 92 were considered an A- and worth only 3.7 grade points.

That’s a little more normal. In my state Grades 1-8 ran on a 7pt scale. A was 93+, B was 85-93

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#639

Post by cperciva »

obscur wrote: post #617
cperciva wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I think the top 1/3 of Oxford undergrads are on par with the top 5% of Harvard undergrads. This is not true of other places which award Firsts.

Your first sentence is interesting, why do you think that?

Harvard takes in a lot of students on the basis of athletics, legacy, and other non-academic considerations. While I've seen students admitted to specific colleges in Oxford due to family ties, that has always been a matter of which college a student attends; I've never seen someone get in that way who wasn't already going to be admitted to the University on academic grounds.

If you look at the top 1/3 of Harvard students who deserve to be admitted on academic grounds, you end up with a much smaller pool than "top 1/3 of Harvard students".

Post reply on HN