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Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

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Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#631

Post by lern_too_spel »

jaywalk wrote: post #520
upbeat_general wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security isn’t a great argument when Apple only updates safari with full system updates. Sure, iOS has a high update rate compared to Android but it’s still far lower than an App Store update would be. Plus, security is somewhat less of a concern when the application only accesses a limited site and isn’t for general purpose browsing for untrusted sites.

> Security isn’t a great argument when Apple only updates safari with full system updates. But they can put those updates out whenever they want, so that doesn't go against the security argument at all.

Users can only get an update by rebooting their devices, so it absolutely goes against the security argument.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#632

Post by lern_too_spel »

r00fus wrote: post #571
yborg wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a specious argument. Allow competitors to deploy apps causing lousy battery life, and Safari should win easily on that basis. Apple's battery app makes it obvious when apps use a lot of energy.

It doesn't matter if Safari "wins" if all other players "required" Chrome browsers. Apple sets the rules for its own products. Why didn't "open" win? Why for whatever reason is Apple still #1 in the mobile space? Perhaps users agree with Apple.

Users are easily duped by marketing. Even technologists. You can see how easily technologists buy Apple's bald-faced lies that its actions are not about user lock-in throughout this comment section.

I can write a browser using WXWebView that wastes battery outside the rendering code, and Apple won't stop me. I can write a maps application that wastes battery, and Apple won't stop me. But if I write a web rendering engine that wastes battery, I have crossed a line? A line that is so important not to cross that Apple won't even let me try to write a rendering engine that uses less battery than WXWebView? I cannot believe that anybody would buy that argument without marketing distorting their thoughts.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#633

Post by traveler01 »

soco wrote: post #102
alex_smart wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox just pushed yet another pointless UI change six months ago. People using their software just to go about with their lives don't like pointless UI changes.

I'm not ironic just puzzled: what was the UI change months ago? I'm using Firefox on two laptops and one Android and haven't noticed it...

Yeah, they changed a lot of stuff, even I, a techy person got confused about it.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#634

Post by dmitriid »

tata71 wrote: post #600
zepto wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PWA’s aren’t ‘innovation’. Apps can do far more than PWAs.

Really? Why did Spotify and Pax Labs make PWAs again?

No idea about Pax Labs.

Spotify creates native apps for everything. "PWA" aka the web player is there for devices that don't have a native app yet, and for embedding.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#635

Post by dmitriid »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #632
r00fus wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if Safari "wins" if all other players "required" Chrome browsers. Apple sets the rules for its own products. Why didn't "open" win? Why for whatever reason is Apple still #1 in the mobile space? Perhaps users agree with Apple.

Users are easily duped by marketing. Even technologists. You can see how easily technologists buy Apple's bald-faced lies that its actions are not about user lock-in throughout this comment section. I can write a browser using WXWebView that wastes battery outside the rendering code, and Apple won't stop me. I can write a maps application that wastes battery, and Apple won't stop me. But if I write a web rendering en…

> Users are easily duped by marketing. Even technologists.

Ah yes. Everything can be explained by marketing, and marketing alone. Poor, poor Google, and Samsung, and so on, who are struggling to find the money and the power to make people buy Android phones through the power of marketing.

Perhaps, just perhaps, I'm going on a limb here, Apple actually makes a phone that people want?

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#636

Post by dmitriid »

mtomweb wrote: post #403
defaultname wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"supports the smallest number of features out of any browser." This is a bit like saying India has the smallest number of people in countries named China or India. It's still an enormous number of features, and it is simply extraordinary what is capable in the browser. "this is reflected in all the developer surveys" Remember "Made for IE"? IE was dogshit , yet there were loads of devs who thought ActiveX was the bee…

So you obviously don’t build apps for iOS Safari and I can understand as a user why you might be under the misguided impression that it’s a good browser. As our primary target environment it is an uphill battle to get things to work in a way that it’s not on either Firefox or blink based browsers. It breaks in every major version that’s been released. Simply talk to any developer who has to do a significant amount of…

> imply talk to any developer who has to do a significant amount of work building apps in Safari

Don't build "apps" in the browser. Period. It's shitty, underperforming, and breaks all user expectations, regardless of the browser it's running on.

I've yet to see a single app, PWA or not, that wasn't so. Unless it's just a re-skin of a simple website with text and images, and a few forms, but then it's just a website, and if you can't make it run on Safari, go find a different job.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#637

Post by dmitriid »

ksec wrote: post #541
isodev wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Safari/WebKit team has made a great deal of improvements over the last couple of versions. I think "compatible enough" has turned into a good "basically the same as Firefox" when it comes to web standards with the release of Safari 15 and 15.1. I also support the stance that certain features should remain focused where they belong e.g. natively installed apps. But who can decide what should be a web standard and…

Exactly. Not much of an Apple or Safari supporter but credit where credit's due Safari 13-15 has made more improvement each version than previous Safari. If they keep up the pace Safari 16 should be very close to current Chrome and Firefox. https://developer.apple.com/safari/technology-preview/releas...

Safari and Firefox have always been close: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence

The vocal minority is a very tiny percentage of web developers who believe that whatever Chrome spits out is the bees knees, the modern standard, and all browsers must immediately have that.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#638

Post by tim333 »

akagusu wrote: post #130

The real problem of Firefox is one that nobody cares about: distribution. Let's say Firefox is the most advanced browser of the universe. How can you get people to install Firefox? Chrome has the advantage here because it is preinstalled in every Android phone and Android has more than 90% market share. The second advantage Chrome has is that it cannot be uninstalled from Android. The fact that Android phones have a…

Internet Explorer used to have that edvantage - included in Windows but most people used it to download Chrome because Chrome was better in various ways. I think the problem with Firefox is it's not noticeably better. Not sure how you fix that though.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#639

Post by latexr »

asoneth wrote: post #624
latexr wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if the size of the macOS automation community is large enough to make much of an impact on their market share. The automation communit ies (plural) create tools for themselves and for others . That’s the important bit. It’s common for non-coders to resort to those communities (which can be as simple as a subreddit) to achieve a simple recurring task. If they use Firefox, they get turned away from it becaus…

> Not only do those developers abandon Firefox, so do all their users. Noted. The underlying question stands: what is the size of this (combined) community and is it large enough to make a meaningful impact on Firefox's market share? Some software can survive by finding a loyal niche, but a browser engine is probably not one of them as it requires a certain market share threshold to be a target for web developers. >…

> The underlying question stands: what is the size of this (combined) community and is it large enough to make a meaningful impact on Firefox's market share?

I don’t have data to make that claim definitively. Even if it’s large enough and they catered to it now, would people come back? I don’t know.

But that’s not my larger point:

> Before I stopped caring, I checked every (front page) Firefox story on HN and without exception I collected a new macOS grievance by someone different.

An example is music producers missing the Web MIDI API. I focused on automation because that’s what I know, but my point is they have multiple communities to cater to. This conversation started with a quote about Firefox niches.

> When the gain exceeds the loss from the bleed.

I wasn’t talking in the abstract. Firefox is unable to get new users at that rate.

> I hear your frustration that you cannot help people use your tools with Firefox.

I no longer care. I let them know why Firefox doesn’t work and point them to the bug report but tell them to not get their hopes up. My tools are open-source and free, so it’s not like this feature gap impacts by bottom line. I want to add Firefox support because I want it to succeed. But they’re not making it easy for automaters to help; quite the contrary, every useful tool we build which supports every major browser except Firefox is another nail in the coffin.

> Marketing stunts are usually done to attract advertiser dollars, not users.

Their stunts actively lose them users. No users, no one to advertise to.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#640

Post by soco »

CRConrad wrote: post #628
soco wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not ironic just puzzled: what was the UI change months ago? I'm using Firefox on two laptops and one Android and haven't noticed it...

On desktop (Windows 10) Firefox, I can't see which tab is active because all the buttons on the "tab" bar look almost exactly the same.

Okay I missed that because I don't use Firefox's tabs, but the Tree Style Tab extension.
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