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Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

economist.com

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Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#631

Post by inglor_cz »

visarga wrote: post #552
greesil wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be true if there was no difference between seeking equality and justice vs. scapegoating Naziesque goose-stepping grievances. I say this as someone who gets annoyed by politically active coworkers. Not all ideologies are created equally.

> seeking equality and justice Equality of outcome or opportunity? That matters. I'd support one but not the other. I lived under Communism until 1989 and I know what equal outcome looks like after decades of having its run. There is no incentive to excel and all the incentives to conform because equality comes before merit. After some time the whole society slides into poverty. What I don't like is to put ideology o…

Hello fellow Eastern European.

Yeah, a quest for societal justice can absolutely turn into an egg-breaking rampage with promise of a tasty omelette sometimes in the unspecified glorious future. We have seen it and are a bit sceptical.

The USA was spared this particular disaster. Perhaps we could point out the case of the Prohibition or War on Drugs to our American friends?

These, too, were/are moral crusades ostensibly led by the noblest of intentions, in practice steamrolling individuals without mercy and giving incentive to rise of brutal criminal organizations.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#632

Post by anigbrowl »

jmull wrote: post #302
arpowers wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game theory, finally someone gets it.

I don't get it. What's the insight here?

There isn't one. It's just a restatement of public choice theory and how little influence individual voters have. Of course, as soon as you consider there are other ways to do politics besides voting it becomes meaningless.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#633

Post by mdoms »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #157
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that pyramid not classic slippery slope fallacy? You could make a pyramid where you have violent movies and playing violent video games leads to a person becoming a serial killer arguing that violent movies and video games desensitize you to murder.

It's only a slippery slope fallacy if the progression is hypothetical and unjustified - otherwise, it's an actual slippery slope. The progression from normalization of racial animosity to genocide - on a societal level, not the strawman that any individual will make an off-color joke today and build the gas chambers tomorrow - is something that has demonstrably happened multiple times in the past couple of centuries,…

If it has been demonstrated multiple times then it should be no problem for you to provide some examples.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#634

Post by hervature »

hn_user82179 wrote: post #509
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant…

> You'd need to convince workers to not believe that someone who says sexist stuff in a book is going to cause a problem for them. This resonated with me. Anecdotally, I sometimes wonder if small, unpleasant interactions (e.g. getting talked over multiple times in a meeting) have anything to do with my gender (I'm the only woman on my team) or are accidental/benign. I usually assume they're benign because I like my c…

The user imgabe has been doing a good job explaining this. But the question here is not someone treats you poorly and you find evidence that they are prejudicial against you. Imagine the converse, suppose Antonio actually treated you the best amongst your team. Should the others be fired for being worse than a “known” sexist? Known in quotes because if they say one thing but act in the opposite manner, I’m of the opinion actions speak louder than words.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#635

Post by aksss »

sdenton4 wrote: post #579
Areading314 wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also what people do in autocratic regimes. Effectively we have created a "democratic autocracy" by means of allowing mobs of people to steamroll people online and destroy their reputations.

Fwiw, 'autocracy' means "a country, state, or society governed by one person with absolute power," and has nothing to do with any of this. There's no 'auto' here, no governing, and any power involved is far from absolute... Freedom of speech doors not mean freedom from consequences for what one says. If someone says shitheel things, their 'reputation' is allowed to suffer...

Well just think about all the times in history where religious culture has the upper hand, or anti-communism, or communism. To me it doesn’t matter what the dogma of the day is, the behavior of loud elements in society shouting down free expression, or unorthodox thought, is pretty repugnant. It’s not as simple as saying society is just expressing displeasure. That’s fine, but I think we can all see a different beast rising up here in the US lately that is historically recognizable. Read the opening of The Three Body Problem - that shit was real, and those social movements are a liability for any culture as it’s part of human behavior. There’s nothing exceptional about the US that prevents our society from falling victim to political cults.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#636

Post by zo1 »

0xy wrote: post #428
ir123 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. That's where you are wrong. He wrote some things he genuinely believed in, and its reasonable to assume that his actions will follow similar lines. Would I want a self proclaimed nazi to work with me? Hell no. Would I want a misogynist to work with me? No.

Political beliefs are a protected class in practically every first world country, including the US. If an employee was a member of a fascist party it'd quite literally be illegal to fire them on that basis.

From every place I've personally seen mention of protecting groups in terms of hiring, they always copy-paste a cookie-cutter list of "protected classes". But political beliefs has never been one of them. I have this weird habit of checking each time. And it only differs by adding additional items related to the newer "classes" like gender/sex.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#637

Post by 0xy »

PeterisP wrote: post #451
0xy wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political beliefs are a protected class in practically every first world country, including the US. If an employee was a member of a fascist party it'd quite literally be illegal to fire them on that basis.

No, political beliefs are a protected class in practically every first world country, but excluding the US; in most states (excluding, IIRC, California - which matters a lot here) it would be legal for a private employer to fire an employee for being a member of the Democrat or Republican party. The key employee anti-discrimination law is the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which prohibits employers from di…

I don't understand the point, all of the firms mentioned in the OP are headquartered and have the majority of their staff in California, where it's illegal to fire for political beliefs.

State, federal or Civil Rights Act or not, it's illegal.

California Labor Code 1101 and 1102 LC expressly forbids it, including retaliatory actions (which is a much lower bar than firing).

In California, being passed up for promotion or being discriminated against in ANY way as a result of your political beliefs or activities is illegal.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#638

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

belorn wrote: post #617
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If and when an employee creates a hostile work environment, then the employer may address it by disciplining or firing that employee. I don't believe this at all, and more importantly, the way you've phrased your second paragraph, I don't think you really believe it all, either. That is, your first paragraph appears to be arguing that it's only OK to fire an employee for "hostile work environment" if that employee…

What if the employee is into domination role playing in the bedroom. Should we fire such employees in the case they brought their interest into the work place and created a toxic environment? I could imagine how any generic law that tried to address this would break horrible in all the multiple ways people have opinion, views and hobbies that if brought to work would create a toxic environment and be grounds for firi…

I'm not sure what you're arguing. If someone is into domination role playing and "brought that interest into the work place" (not quite sure what that means) then there is a very, very good chance they will get fired, and indeed many many people have been fired for unwelcome sexual discussions at work.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#639

Post by odiroot »

pmorici wrote: post #214
imbnwa wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that same vein, shouldn't office dating/sexual pursuits be a no-no?

They generally are.

Maybe in US. Meeting people at work usually was (and probably still is) the most common way to find a romantic partner in Europe.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#640

Post by 0xy »

zackees wrote: post #462
PeterisP wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, political beliefs are a protected class in practically every first world country, but excluding the US; in most states (excluding, IIRC, California - which matters a lot here) it would be legal for a private employer to fire an employee for being a member of the Democrat or Republican party. The key employee anti-discrimination law is the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which prohibits employers from di…

This is the correct answer. Believe it or not it’s completely legal to fire someone in California for going to a black lives matter protest or a conservative conference.

This is false. [1]

[1] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/harassment/political-reta...

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