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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

bbc.com

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#631

Post by lhorie »

NovaJehovah wrote: post #581
lhorie wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have an obligation to do the best that you can The problem I have with this attitude is the pronoun. If you have some standards, great but please try to keep them to yourself. There's a lot of toxic "you should do this, you should be like that" type of talk in parenting circles, a lot of which is frankly condescending and non-actionable and add a lot of unnecessary stress, especially for insecure people. People…

Feel free to change every "you should" to "one should" in your head. I understand that this is a sensitive subject, but there are people reading this thread who are about to become parents, and they need to know the truth.

> one should

No offense, but that's still kinda condescending. I have 2 kids myself but I don't go around preaching. Stuff like post partum depression, pre-existing chronic conditions, overbearing grandparents, domestic abuse, etc are all real things and you and I are neither psychologists, pediatricians, nor social workers so best to leave the advice giving to licensed professionals.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#632

Post by recursive »

NovaJehovah wrote: post #595
recursive wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think that most parents know deep down that it's wrong, and that they are doing it for themselves, not the baby. I'm definitely not in that group. I have no such deep knowledge of it being wrong. I really believe it's actually better for some kids. Like mine for instance. It's not a compromise for me. I believe OP is saying not to worry about what other people are telling you about how to parent. I didn't inf…

I certainly have more respect for someone who does sleep training because they think it's best for the child, rather than for themselves. Of course, everyone will say that's why they're doing it, but you seem sincere. I still think you have to be misinformed or deliberately ignorant of the evidence that's out there to hold this position though. I also think the reason people don't dig deeper is that they, perhaps unc…

Maybe. It would have to be subconscious on my part. I did read a book about it.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#633

Post by leokennis »

toxik wrote: post #522
leokennis wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, it’s very simple: I work and my wife works. After some maternity/paternity leave, we both need to get to work again to earn money to provide our kids with food, shelter, a future etc. To be able to work, we need to sleep. For us to sleep, our kids and the baby needs to sleep. So we put the baby in his own room on day three. Always had him sleep in his bed in his room. Didn’t let him sleep anywhere else (or whe…

It sounds like you had an easy time. Good for you. Many, many parents suffer hell with babies not sleeping and being upset. It seems a bit dismissive to just say “oh just do X and it’s all good”.

I didn’t mean to imply that.

My point was basically, if both parents have daytime obligations necessary to support the family, it’s very logical that they try to get the baby to sleep in the night ASAP

In that regard, having babies sleep in your bed, or having babies that cry though the night and accepting that as natural is a luxury (or problem) some families cannot afford.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#634

Post by curryst »

dsego wrote: post #604
Ma8ee wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the nineties they started advise parents that all infants should sleep on the back, which reduced SIDS a lot [0]. But it means that it is is very hard to draw any conclusions at all about other factors. [0] https://safetosleep.nichd.nih.gov/research/science/backsleep...

Not in all countries. In my country we lay them on their side supported by a rolled towel. We make sure they equally lay on both sides. Sleeping on the back will give them a flat head.

> Sleeping on the back will give them a flat head.

I'm fairly certain this isn't true. I would expect there to be a lot more flat-headed babies and people around. I don't think I've ever seen one. Not telling you what to do, just pointing out I don't think that part is factual.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#635

Post by Ma8ee »

curryst wrote: post #634
dsego wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in all countries. In my country we lay them on their side supported by a rolled towel. We make sure they equally lay on both sides. Sleeping on the back will give them a flat head.

> Sleeping on the back will give them a flat head. I'm fairly certain this isn't true. I would expect there to be a lot more flat-headed babies and people around. I don't think I've ever seen one. Not telling you what to do, just pointing out I don't think that part is factual.

It’s certainly true. Our oldest kid had a quite flat head when he was an infant, so we had to get him a special pillow and was advised to try to let him sleep on the side. But it’s nothing that you think about except when you put your hand on the back of his head, and most of it will allegedly disappear when the scull grows.

And if you think my anecdote is enough, Google will provide you with plenty, e.g., [0].

[0] https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/plagiocephaly-brachycephaly/

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#636

Post by AnimalMuppet »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #601
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Zion National Park, there's a trail called Angels Landing. It goes up a ridge with a 500 foot dropoff on one side, and a 1000 foot dropoff on the other. The ridge between them is only a couple feet wide in places. I think of parenting that way - there's a cliff on one side (too much strictness, say), but don't back too far away from it, because there's also a cliff on the other side (too permissive). So when you s…

I think that's a pretty extreme view... But when navigating a narrow ridge like that, books can wait and I'm definitely following my gut.

Sure. But on the actual trail, you can see the edges. In parenting, you can't, and it takes you years to realize that you fell off it.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#637

Post by beart »

notsureaboutpg wrote: post #523
beart wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from the U.S. My mother has my kids at least two days a week. It saves me money, gives her an excuse to come over, and the kids love it. After I finish working we will typically make dinner together. I did not have this sort of experience growing up and I'm really glad things have worked out this way for my kids. If only I could get her to stop cleaning everything while she's at my house and filling my fridge wi…

Does your mother prefer to live on her own? Seems like you both like having her around the house! I'm asking because in my culture parents living separately from their adult kids is rare.

I'm not sure what her preference is, and it isn't something that has been discussed. For context, my mother is in her early sixties and still works part-time.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#638

Post by JoeAltmaier »

throwanem wrote: post #628
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look forward to a helpful reply to a question. Instead of snark.

I suppose that's fair. Trivial literature review shows that there's nothing remotely resembling a discrete "SIDS gene", and that while there probably are genomic variations that can pose a subtle elevation of risk, that risk can't be evaluated outside the context of a given infant's environment and its effect on the likelihood of any such risk to materialize into SIDS proper. That genomic risk is so subtle that it ca…

You are a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you for a very enlightening response!

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#639

Post by NovaJehovah »

kaba0 wrote: post #615
NovaJehovah wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of it is, but not all of it. My own conclusion (which is not the one I wanted to reach, believe me) was that when you throw out all the bad research, the evidence, while not conclusive, does clearly point more in one direction than the other.

Could you show such a research? Because you have been saying it all around the thread, some proof would be handy.

The major studies that have been done are fairly easy to find with some google investigation. I looked at them all over a year ago and formed my conclusions. I unfortunately didn't keep around a list of links to post in debates on internet forums.

This post mentions a few of the main ones (I'm not vouching for the post's content): https://www.laleche.org.uk/letting-babies-cry-facts-behind-s...

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#640

Post by NovaJehovah »

ak217 wrote: post #629
NovaJehovah wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true. Yet another hard thing about being a parent is that there is a lot of crappy "research" and advice to wade through (including most of the research claiming to support your view, btw). But there's some solid stuff out there too--pretending there isn't because you might reach conclusions that conflict with a self-serving parenting philosophy is just another excuse.

Your advice in this thread falls into that category. You take some sort of puritanical ideal of hard work and sacrifice, then apply it to build a... distorted idea of what parenting is and to abstractly shame people who don't fit it, then ignore all requests for references to any research at all done on this, then repeat this over and over with everyone who's trying to figure out what you mean. From what I know, your…

It's always fun to be criticized for not citing research by people who don't cite anything themselves.

You're the one advocating for an approach that is unnatural, brand new in human (and primate) history, and that causes both babies and parents visceral emotional distress. If I'm wrong about the research, why can't you prove it?

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