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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#601

Post by forgotmypw17 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #585
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused... Why would I want to ignore something which resonates with me? Isn't that the whole point of "resonance" and "feelings", to use them to guide our reason? I would read the books on permissive parenting not to convince myself that it's right, but to find techniques and strategies which work.

In Zion National Park, there's a trail called Angels Landing. It goes up a ridge with a 500 foot dropoff on one side, and a 1000 foot dropoff on the other. The ridge between them is only a couple feet wide in places. I think of parenting that way - there's a cliff on one side (too much strictness, say), but don't back too far away from it, because there's also a cliff on the other side (too permissive). So when you s…

I think that's a pretty extreme view...

But when navigating a narrow ridge like that, books can wait and I'm definitely following my gut.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#602

Post by v-erne »

Viliam1234 wrote: post #495
leokennis wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, it’s very simple: I work and my wife works. After some maternity/paternity leave, we both need to get to work again to earn money to provide our kids with food, shelter, a future etc. To be able to work, we need to sleep. For us to sleep, our kids and the baby needs to sleep. So we put the baby in his own room on day three. Always had him sleep in his bed in his room. Didn’t let him sleep anywhere else (or whe…

It is sad if in 2021 a wife (or a husband) cannot take even a year or half-year break from the career. (To avoid possible confusion, I am shaming the society, not you.)

I personalny blame american culture (and protestant work ethic hidden behind it). Add some capitalistic rat race to that and You will get richest society on earth in which almost no one can stop for a moment to take a breath and maybe even do some parenting. Meanwhile here in Poland my wife was able to take year long parent leave (two times - one for each child). Some may say this is sociallism - and I would say that it does not mean it is a bad idea. It makes socially acceptable for parents to take a break.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#603

Post by dsego »

hadlock wrote: post #507
Viliam1234 wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not leaving them alone is enough, but to make people actually follow the rule, it is useful to tell them that kids are easily able to drown even in unbelievably small amounts of water, and also in situations where drowning seems almost impossible .

I learned something today, and ours is about to turn 4 months. None of this was communicated to us, probably because it's expected that you pick up most of this tribal knowledge via, pre-covid, other parents in your socio-age group. We attended an infant cpr class via zoom, learned nothing. We at least got the message about SIDS, but the lack of tribal knowledge in the first six weeks was pretty brutal as first-time…

Never ever leave them on the bed alone even if they are sleeping and you have cushions around them. They will still find a way to roll and fall off the bed (happened to us). 9 times out of 10 it will be fine but I've read horror stories online so be careful.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#604

Post by dsego »

Ma8ee wrote: post #503
secabeen wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> accidentally smothered by their parents while they're deeply asleep This seems unlikely. 10% of babies share a sleep surface with parents, up from 6.5% in 1993, yet SIDS deaths are down over the same period: https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20180212/baby-suffocation-de... https://www.cdc.gov/sids/data.htm

Since the nineties they started advise parents that all infants should sleep on the back, which reduced SIDS a lot [0]. But it means that it is is very hard to draw any conclusions at all about other factors. [0] https://safetosleep.nichd.nih.gov/research/science/backsleep...

Not in all countries. In my country we lay them on their side supported by a rolled towel. We make sure they equally lay on both sides. Sleeping on the back will give them a flat head.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#605

Post by NovaJehovah »

zamfi wrote: post #600
NovaJehovah wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am telling you that the two are not equivalent Well, that's where I disagree. I think they are functionally equivalent. > I address the "ignoring" part in my post You address it by claiming that sleep training doesn't mean ignoring a crying baby. If there are sleep training methods that don't involve this, I doubt they would work with most kids. Realistically, if you are committed to sleep training, you're going…

> You address it by claiming that sleep training doesn't mean ignoring a crying baby, which is clearly false and not worth responding to. Crying is pretty much the only consistent part of infancy, and if "crying for hours until they fall asleep" and "crying for 10 minutes at a time with parental reassurance" are both equivalent in the "ignoring a crying baby" category, then I'm not sure how one would ever handle a ta…

You seem to think only the process of sleep training is bad, but the result is good, so you are focused on one process compared to another. But as bad as the process is, I think the result is much worse--the resignation and acceptance and yes, increased cortisol levels, that will now probably have an impact on that child for the rest of their life. And the result of every method is the same. I mean, it's the whole point. So that's why I see them as all being the same.

Tantrums, meltdowns, or a kid crying because they want something are completely different, or they should be. The best response, based on the reading I've done and my own experience, is neither to ignore them nor to give in, but to empathize with them and comfort them, then (if they can understand you yet) calmly explain what the rules are, why they can't have a cookie now, etc.

The issue isn't the crying itself. They might cry for 10 minutes about the cookie, but you'll be holding them and engaging with them, not ignoring them or leaving them alone.

My purpose isn't to shame anyone. I just gave my opinion on some practices and attitudes I believe are harmful. I think you and others are reading that in because if I'm right, then maybe you'd feel some shame for doing things the way you did. It's a touchy subject that can provoke strong emotions. I don't personally hold it against anyone or think less of them though. It's not easy and everyone makes mistakes. I've made tons.

The research is easy to google. There's really not that much of it. Anyone can be up to speed on it in a few hours, probably. You're taking issue with my characterization of it, but you don't cite anything yourself, so /shrug. I've made some fairly specific claims, so feel free to prove me wrong if you can.

I more or less agree with your last paragraph. If you don't do sleep training, lots of people, likely including your pediatrician if you live in the US, will try to push you into doing so, so that cuts both ways. But I would argue that you shouldn't uncritically listen to any other people, even people you trust. People can be lovely and trustworthy but have terribly misinformed ideas about parenting. Instead, take the time to educate yourself. Keep an open mind and form your own conclusions. It's worth spending some time on.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#606

Post by lotsofpulp »

bluGill wrote: post #563
lotsofpulp wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not for doctors. The lower end of the household income range I listed is achievable by doctors alone. I would also presume doctors are more often than not marrying lawyers on the higher end of the income scale. Bottom line, based on numerous personal experiences and pay data, I do not expect lawyer/doctor families to have the quality of life the person I was responding to claim they have, on average.

You are confusing quality of life with money saved for a rainy day. So long as the income holds out they are not much different, but when bad times come one is in trouble

Who is not much different? Surely having six figures of extra free cash flow makes a different in quality of life compared to 80% of the population.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#607

Post by [deleted] »

toxik wrote: post #528
knolax wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You want to continue to check on your baby at preset intervals but never feed or rock them to sleep Sounds like childrearing done by a robot.

While you aimed for a flippant remark, robots helping with child rearing is absolutely going to happen. It’s already happening to the extent that it’s possible. What’s so bad about it?

[deleted]

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#608

Post by plutonorm »

zamfi wrote: post #555
plutonorm wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have kids. You step up. Yes it's hard, but it's your absolute unshakeable duty to do your best by them. Putting them down to sleep away from you and then expecting them to suck it up and deal with it when they get distressed is one of the most idiotic things that I hear otherwise intelligent people say. To a child, separation from their parents is the most stressful experience possible because in the wild separat…

> Putting them down to sleep away from you and then expecting them to suck it up and deal with it when they get distressed is one of the most idiotic things that I hear otherwise intelligent people say This is exactly the kind of "common sense reasoning" put-down that makes parenting so challenging. Do you actually know -- I mean, have actual evidence of harm? Obviously it "sounds idiotic". But bloodletting to reduce…

Fine, don't use common sense. My parents and my parents in law were against breast feeding. I mean literally against breast feeding. Why? Because psychologically it was impossible for them to even think that they might not have done the very best for their kids. You are probably caught in the same trap. And as the evidence comes in for sleep training or separating from your child at night, as it did for artificial milk, you will probably adopt the same psychological defence. But at the end of the day, these things are not going to hurt the average child. But we should have guidelines that improve the average outcome for the average child. And anything that deviates from what we have adapted to over millions of years is likely to be a bad idea.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#609

Post by lotsofpulp »

johncessna wrote: post #536
lotsofpulp wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't jive with any data or personal experience I have. The Ramsey Solutions study also seems like garbage, especially because it seems like their definition of millionaire is someone with $1M in a 401k. But if you line up 100 teachers or CPAs and 100 doctors in the USA, you can sure as hell bet the doctors will be far wealthier than the teachers or CPAs. It's a fact that US doctors, across the whole populatio…

Well, their definition of a millionaire is someone with a net worth of greater than a million dollars. That's also my working definition of a millionaire, and I thought was the definition of a millionaire. Can you provide your definition so that I can frame your comments with it?

Sorry, I should have said the metric of a millionaire as defined buy $1M in a 401k is not saying much.

Having $1M after decades of working at or near retirement age is the bare minimum one needs for a “decent” retirement if they want to continue their lifestyle. I know 90% of Americans don’t come close to it, but if you want security of quality of life and not worry about medical expenses, $1M will not go far in many of the places in the US that are popular.

On the other hand, when I’m putting together a real estate deal and I need a few hundred thousand dollars, I have many doctors I can call who might be able to pony up, but no teacher is going to be able to come up with that kind of investment. I know a couple of outlier engineers and CPAs who can come up with that that, but nowhere near the amount of doctors, especially as a percentage of all engineers and CPAs.

It’s just crazy to me to hear of the profession where all members are higher earners that are at $200k on the low end be put in the same bucket as teachers whose median might be $60k to $80k, in high cost of living areas.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#610

Post by wojciii »

gumby wrote: post #403

As a parent myself I have only one piece of child rearing advice. First: Read a bunch of books (which will contradict each other) Then: a) do what you think is right and b) when someone tells you to do X (especially, but not only your mother or mother in law), if you disagree just say "Funny you should say that because I just read the exact opposite" and hand them a random baby rearing book. This sounds like a joke b…

Also own parents might have outdated info from 30 years ago which they attempt to use now.

My parents clearly don't like the way I raise my children. I made it clear that what my wife and I do is for us the correct way and while we will listen to reason they should accept it as the right way.

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