A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#631

Post by Ragnarork » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #110

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

> It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead.

So you missed the part of the article that explained they will commit a portion of their salary to fund the union?

They are working for a company known to hire union-busters, fire employees trying to unionize or point out issues, and you want to argue that this is the safe way to try to follow their ideals and principles? This doesn't make much sense.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#632

Post by tempuser189 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

kanbara wrote: post #593

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the detail that most people miss: Unions don’t protect the general public against a company. They protect the ranking members of a company. That means the union also protects members of the company from the general public who might be looking to take their job by offering to work harder or better or cheaper. If you’re a young person getting started in this industry it might be fun to imagine working in a unio…

Um... in germany works councils don't get rid of young people because they want to protect their senior ranks. First: it's really hard to get fired in germany, almost impossible. Second: they help formulate who gets laid off when, when there are layoffs, and prioritise people who can and will find a job more easily. So young people and people without families. This is because older people are more vulnerable to discr…

First: that's awful because it means business don't have any flexibility to change. you're forced to work with people who don't work, because they can't get fired. The lower productivity of those workers becomes a drag on everyone else.

Second: this is the worst. Instead of shedding the dead weight it insists on protecting the people who've been paying dues the longest, at the expense of young people.

No this is not what I call a just society.

A just society is one where people doing more work get more pay. This exists fine right now. Workers have tons of companies to choose from. Companies have lots of workers to choose from. There's a vibrant market and most people end up getting paid what they're worth.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#633

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

da_big_ghey wrote: post #503

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster. I am such a person. For most workers, you're right that a union will probably increase wages. But for me, it will do the opposite. In most jobs I have worked, I ended up paid significantly more than counterparts in the same job. I usually was better at my job and put in…

> put in more hours

I'm skeptical of unionization in tech, but the one thing I can imagine unions would fix is the constant unpaid overtime that's associate with tech jobs. In a union situation, you'd be paid more if you were working more hours period, rather than hoping somebody would notice and give you a pay raise at some indeterminate time in the future.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#634

Post by baud147258 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

Where I live, unions just seem to protect un-productive employees (if they are union members of course) and slow down process by adding another layer of bureaucracy. But maybe it's different in the land of the free?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#635

Post by wilde » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

Sure we can. Hollywood without unions = gamedev. Looks pretty shitty to me.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#636

Post by readams » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

rdgthree wrote: post #94

It seems incredibly significant that only 230 people are officially involved with these plans to unionize. As of 2019, Google had nearly 120,000 employees.[0] That seems quite small, relatively speaking. Legally (I think, just learning about this now), to form a union, a majority of workers must show their willingness to form a union. Alternatively, to choose an existing union to join, an election with 30% of the wor…

Google is already being ruined by this tiny minority of sanctimonious blowhards. This is just a move to give more power to themselves to push their own political agenda in Google. Personally I want nothing to do with them, and I'd prefer that they just leave the company if they're unhappy. There's still lots of companies that want to hire software engineers, though of course they may find that nobody else puts up with their nonsense either.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#637

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

[deleted]

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#638

Post by mainstreemm » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #611

onion2k wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs. That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

It's OK, once Google gets a union then you'll lose your 600k TC job and get moved back down to the 250k job because you haven't been at the company long enough and promotions and pay ranges can be based on tenure because that's more equitable.

Your responsibilities will be the same, though.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#639

Post by Bresenham » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #445

Bresenham wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> massively powerful, self-interested entity The difference is the union at some level ultimately has to answer to the workers who comprise the union, whereas the corporation is ultimately responsible to the majority stockholders who are expropriating surplus labor time from those working at corporations.

What's the difference between exproprating labor time and compensating for labor time (in Google's case excessively well)

The difference is labor time compensated for is compensated for, labor time expropriated is not.

Labor time compensated for by Google excessively well is also labor time where workers are producing wealth excessively well. Ken Thompson had a hand in creating an enormous amount of wealth before he stepped foot in Google. Where does all this created wealth come from? The work done by those who work and create wealth at Google (and the uncompensated primitive accumulation of web content - and the taxpayer funded grants to Stanford and for ARPAnet development etc.)

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#640

Post by dleslie » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

ddingus wrote: post #373

finnthehuman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

The better organizers will have a priority discussion. What terms improve things for everyone? How should work be? From there, they build solidarity around those terms. When the vision maps to 80 / 90 percent of labor at that enterprise, the effort to unionize can win.

You're taking it on faith that those with authority in the discussions will be acting altruistically with equitable consideration for all would-be members.