My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison • Hacker News Board

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#631

Post by joncrane » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 1:58 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #292

joncrane wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's not captured here is that drugs are a contributing factor to many of the crimes committed. An old and rather tired example is the junky stealing to get his next fix. The crime is robbery, but the cause is drugs. I would argue (having been in jail myself multiple times, and, by the way, thanks to a lot of factors, now very happily and gainfully employed) that drugs are at the very least a co-factor on the vast…

When you say a co-factor, can you say more about what you have in mind? For instance it could be a junky who needs to feed his own habit. It could be that the profits available from dealing in some area motivate gangs to take control of it. And it could also be just that people taking drugs have impaired judgement, and do things they would avoid while sober. Would you care to guess how much of each goes on? For alcoh…

Let me put it this way: if you were to create a Venn diagram of habitual drug and alcohol users and people who get incarcerated, 90+% of the incarcerated people would also be in the habitual users circle.

I know correlation doesn't imply causation, but that's not the argument I'm making here.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#632

Post by lostcolony » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

waterhouse wrote: post #567

lostcolony wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the "punitive" side of things. Certainly, it seems "fair" to ensure the punishment is equal to the crime, but fair isn't the same as just. Why don't you go Code of Hammurabi on someone, and inflict the same kind of injury? The logic still holds. Of course, it now requires people willing to commit torture and rape and the like, to equal the crime, but that's the logical conclusion of trying to be "fair". But ev…

There is a rights-based approach in which (a) yes, someone inflicting a harm on you gives you the right to inflict a proportionate harm on them; (b) you can then go to them and threaten to inflict this harm, and usually get them to agree to pay you a fine instead, thus benefiting both of you. Labor could be used to substitute for a fine if someone can't pay, although I think in today's prisons the prisoners don't nec…

Not really sure what your point here is in relation to my post. That if we didn't have a legal system or governmental authority that we collectively have agreed to allow to arbitrate these matters, it would be left up to individuals to do, and that such a system is ripe (per your later comments) of exploitation by the rich? I mean, sure, but hardly seems relevant to the comment or the current state of most countries.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#633

Post by steve76 » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 2:26 PM UTC

g5becks wrote: post #538

I went through the same situation, except I chose to work for myself instead of going into the job market. I shared a small part of my story for the first time on reddit [1] , which led to me being interviewed on the stackoverflow podcast [2] . All I can say is that from my experience, knowing how to code is a skill that has proven to be indispensable. I don’t know what I would be doing if it wasn’t for the fact that…

In order to get a paycheck today, you have to:

1. Connect with ownership on a personal level. Relate shared life experiences. Stabbed someone to death? Beat someone half dead resulting in life long paralysis? What great break room conversation.

2. Waste a decade studying to an interview. Who cares for such childish pursuits such as humanitarianism and contributing to the expansion of our shared collective knowledge. This is a job interview we're talking about. For reference please see the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show or the rehab demo scene from A Clockwork Orange.

Bullying. Violence. Churning people for money like some slow motion organ vampire. yeah. That's about right. Don't like the work don't take the money.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#634

Post by afiori » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

berdario wrote: post #606

thaumasiotes wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistically, it does. If that mattered, all of antidiscrimination law would be struck down.

IANAL (and law differs around the globe) but... discrimination is prohibited towards protected categories. i.e. gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation... on top of it, most of those aren't things that you choose yourself. With the possible exception of religion (you're born into a certain culture, so "by default" you might feel affiliated to a certain religion, so asking people to renounce that would definitely be opp…

In my personal opinion anti-discrimination laws are not born out of precise definition of fair/unfair discrimination but on a value judgement that some particular classes of discriminations are disproportionate and are causing too much harm.

If there never was any racism there would be no need for laws forbidding discrimination on race, conversely if we where deeply elitist based on height there could exist laws about height discrimination.

With regards to felonies the two question I consider focal are:

1) what is the long-term plan for convicted criminals, and

2) how much extra-judicial/social punishment should we tolerate on non-public figures for non-public crimes.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#635

Post by afiori » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

nhumrich wrote: post #565

Aeolun wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? They may take a stricter stance, but I just fail to see how anything but extortion or treason really applies to working in security. Hell, even if you committed a murder that doesn’t make you any more likely to steal company secrets.

Statistically, it does.

Ironically if this is true probably part of the reason would be that too many people already believe it.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#636

Post by csdffsdfsdfsdfs » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 2:53 PM UTC

josephg wrote: post #626

csdffsdfsdfsdfs wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Same rights" - no sorry, somebody who stole before will be regarded with higher suspicion than other people, and that's OK. How do you know they "learned not to steal"? Can you look inside of their heads? There are jobs with less opportunities to steal, for example. Trust has to be regained, simply "having been in prison" is not really worth much in that respect. You would stay in prison, regardless of your mindset,…

As an Australian, I find that perspective awful. Going to jail is the punishment society has chosen for the crime. Once you've served your time, you rejoin society on an equal footing. Denying jobs to ex-cons makes it much harder for them to integrate back into society, and increases the recidivism rate. (Which you pay for via taxes.) The equation isn't "bad person -> steals". Its "person maladapted to society / with…

Not "nobody should give them a job", just not a job with ability to do harm. But that's for every employer to decide for themselves.

If you don't think somebody having done X before makes them more likely to do it again than normal people, I don't know. (More accurately, people who did X are more likely to be people who would do X again). We just have to disagree - but you can not enshrine such beliefs in law.

As I said, trust has to be regained, merely doing something you are forced to do anyways does not prove anything about your real attitudes.

In "How To Change Your Life In 7 Steps", the founder of the homeless magazine "The Big Issue" John Bird describes what he had to do to be able to have homeless people work for him. I have high respect for people like him.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#637

Post by afiori » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

ManBlanket wrote: post #528

anon55555 wrote: post #69

Hey, posting anonymously here since this hits close to home; as I'm also a felon. I learned to program _after_ all my legal troubles started, and my sentence wasn't _nearly_ as long as this (6 months, drug crime). I 100% honestly feel like tech saved my life. My first job immediately gave me hope that I'm not defined by my past. Went from working in a factory making $7/hr (about 10 yrs ago), to now grossing well over…

I also have a felony on my record and struggled immensely because of a long wrap sheet of misdemeanor crimes that seemed to cascade from that single mistake. My record has caused me to be fired from and denied several jobs, and at my lowest point I was kicked out of an education program despite succeeding otherwise. "None of my charges are violent or sexual. There's no reason to conclude I'd be a danger to children.…

> It should be illegal for anybody to access resolved criminal records if they don't have a direct reason pertaining to the safety or security of others.

> It's not your job as an employer or hiring manager to judge someone's mistakes, only their aptitude to perform a job.

I have no horse in this race, so my opinion is mostly out of ignorance, but I believe that this formulation isn't entirely correct. In a sense employers should be allowed to make stupid decisions; the problem is when too many employers make correlated decisions leaving out a innocent chunk of the population.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#638

Post by shadowprofile77 » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:01 PM UTC

rimliu wrote: post #628

shadowprofile77 wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just puritanical, judgemental idiocy at its most pointlessly discriminatory. Even for felony offenses it often veers into the same territory but flatly refusing to hire people for fucking misdemeanors with absolutely no relevance to most of the work involved? What a closed, almost hatefully punitive mentality some employers have. I can't put myself into another's shoes or context of needs, but if I ran a firm…

Generealizing: if a person is dishonest, do you think his inclination to act dishonestly depends on the work they do or on their personality?

That's a loaded and extremely variable question. Furthermore, it has little relevance to the main thing I criticized above: that misdemeanors are usually irrelevant to most work and rejecting people because of them is grossly, punitively biased. I say irrelevant because in the context of your question, the value of some random public disorderliness citation or DUI is next to useless for judging how inherently or professionally honest a person is, and even more absurd for measuring how likely they are to commit outright criminal offenses against an employer.

It's very easy to get slapped with a misdemeanor in the U.S and even many other countries, often for absurd, bullshit reasons that had more to do with the mood of the authorities in a given context than a person being at all an abnormal danger to society.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#639

Post by rendall » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #630

Tepix wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Found this: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/once-a-criminal-always-a-crimin... 1% of 988 murderers were arrested for a new crime (yet not another murder). Is that higher than average? It sounds like it is.

Let's be clear that being arrested for a new crime is different than being convicted of a new crime. Given that none of the murderers in that overview went back to prison, I'm inclined to think that their conviction rate is low. Keep in mind also that being an ex-con in a community likely puts you at the top of the PD's suspect list for new crimes, and that reintegration with society is difficult, so imprisonment (re…

Yes, agreed.

Intuitively, it makes sense that "statistically, it does", but if words have meaning, than "statistically" means literally there are statistics demonstrating the assertion, and so far, bupkis

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#640

Post by tssva » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:29 PM UTC

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #455

tssva wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as actual freedom. You exercising your "freedom" almost always means imposing upon someone else's. In your example wouldn't someone having to provide a service to a LGBTQ person even though it is against their religious beliefs be a violation of their freedom of religion just as much as refusing to provide them service would be a violation of the LGBTQ person's freedom? "Freedom" is used a lot…

> In your example wouldn't ... be a violation of their freedom of religion Not at all, that's not what freedom of religion is. I can practice a Mayan or Inca religion by myself - that's freedom of religion - but I cannot allow it to affect other people's life e.g. by organizing human sacrifices.

How is an individual refusing to provide a service which is readily available from others significantly impacting other people's life?

Also not being able to practice ritual sacrifice if it is part of your faith is a violation of your religious freedom. We as society have made the decision that the right to life is a greater right than your right to freely practice your religion but it is still a violation of your right. It is just another example of how in a functioning society decisions have to be constantly be made regarding whose rights are greater than someone else's under what circumstances.