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This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

okwu.edu

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Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#631

Post by ikeboy »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #581
ikeboy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The defense to "you're being a jerk" can only be "I'm not". This article says "I am, but it's okay, get used to it". There's a huge difference between telling someone that their beliefs are wrong to telling them that they are bad and should feel guilty, especially if the doctrine says that everyone is bad and should feel guilty all the time.

> The defense to "you're being a jerk" can only be "I'm not". No, because the response is going to be "Yes you are", and we descend into a shouting match. The reply is "What is your standard for 'being a jerk', and is that standard a reasonable one?" > There's a huge difference between telling someone that their beliefs are wrong to telling them that they are bad and should feel guilty, especially if the doctrine say…

No, because the response is going to be "Yes you are", and we descend into a shouting match.

I don't mean literally, the words you say must be "I'm not a jerk." I mean the defense must consist of a denial that the behavior was jerkish. If that's achieved by laying out standards for jerkishness, that's fine.

The OP read to me as not even achieving that. It wasn't "we aren't jerks, because what we did wasn't jerky", it was "we're going to be jerks, tough on you, shut up".

>That seems like a fair description of how "victimhood culture" treats the rest of us.

I'm not discussing victimhood culture. I'm discussing a specific defense to a specific complaint, which I think lacks value. The specific complaint was not trying to make people feel bad, it was to make themselves feel good. The response explicitly acknowledges that they're trying to make people feel bad.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#632

Post by warfangle »

zaroth wrote: post #618
warfangle wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it's either that or people who really really hate the idea of someone getting their mental health together with useful tools like safe spaces and trigger words :)

I didn't downvote, but accusing the entire community of deep rooted misogyny might have something to do with it?

Are you denying that there is deep rooted (if surface-subtle) misogyny obvious in the comment thread on just about every post about women in tech / safe places / gamergate / just about anything that challenges the authority of cis-gendered white men?

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#633

Post by warfangle »

aggieben wrote: post #590
warfangle wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student. One thing to realize, also, is the context of love (as the topic of discussion in the classroom was in 1 Corinthians 13) in many evangelical circles. Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else. Even when it hurts. It's about stayi…

The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student. I guess "safe space" (quoted as a term under discussion) isn't really the right term here - but the student is the one who raised the issue of "victimization", which to my mind is really more what we're talking about than actual safe spaces as you defined them. So on this point, that might actually be good feedback t…

If he did feel victimized, how christian of the professor it was to just shut him down instead of trying to understand with compassion why he felt victimized...! :)

One wonders if it was all in the professor's head? Or if it even happened? Where's the proof! Flip the conversation, just because the professor is claiming to be accused of saying something that made the student feel victimized doesn't mean it happened!

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#634

Post by dang »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #287
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why you are dismissing claims as social justice and then trying to claim you are a more logically minded person. How is the claim that not all asian people agree with your father or had traumatic experiences with terrorism also invalidating experiences your father had? You claim to be a logical minded person but I'm not following the logic that your father's experiences are invalidated when someone…

Perhaps I misunderstood your post - I thought you were disagreeing and attempting to contribute to the conversation. Perhaps you were just randomly sharing your feelings for no reason?

Not cool. That crosses the line into incivility.

I know you like to stay as close to the line as you can get without crossing it—which is far better than crossing it—but I wish you wouldn't. Your posts would be much better if you would show readers the respect of simply taking that edge out. They're literally edgy, and this acts as a low-grade provocation even when you're not technically saying anything abusive. This is not the way to bring the best out of your interlocutors and fellow users, and it's still a toxin in HN's environment, even if it's below the legal level.

Instead, you should optimize for overall thread quality, which I'm sure you could do if you wanted to. There's some variant of the principle of charity in here somewhere.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#635

Post by warfangle »

zaroth wrote: post #610
alexqgb wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've mistaken discussion in general—which encompasses a fairly broad range of exchanges—with a particularly narrow subset that is characterized by clearly defined and opposing positions, along with acceptance of adversarial engagement from "both sides" of the issue. There's a time and a place for that, to be sure, but there are many more cases in which the forceful imposition of a binary outlook has effects that ar…

I really don't understand what you're saying in the first two paragraphs. What's interesting is I don't think the goal of these "safe spaces" is at all to foster "free discussion" or "open development of ideas". What you see people rallying against is that the SJWs are shutting down any free discussion through these tactics. For example, these "safe spaces" apparently are to protect against "micro-aggressions" (a ter…

You've never been to a safe place have you? :)

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#636

Post by warfangle »

ForHackernews wrote: post #601
warfangle wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is. A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry an…

> They are absofuckinglutely not cudgels of fear. Relevant reading: https://popehat.com/2015/11/09/safe-spaces-as-shield-safe-sp... http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/how-camp...

Relevant reading:

http://www.gayalliance.org/programs/education-safezone/safez...

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#637

Post by dang »

jlhim wrote: post #284
lghh wrote: post #199

I have a friend who attended OKWU a few years ago. She shared this piece on Facebook in approval. From what I know from her education there, this place is essentially a "safe-space" for Christians. If you say anything negative about the religion or its teachings, you are kicked out. If you don't follow its rules, you are kicked out. If you drink, smoke, have premarital sex, are lgbtq, don't follow their strict ethics…

Spare the irrelevant rant. The words in this article are gold and it sounds like you're one of the crybabies they are talking about.

We ban accounts that post uncivil comments like this, so please don't do that.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#638

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ikeboy wrote: post #631
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The defense to "you're being a jerk" can only be "I'm not". No, because the response is going to be "Yes you are", and we descend into a shouting match. The reply is "What is your standard for 'being a jerk', and is that standard a reasonable one?" > There's a huge difference between telling someone that their beliefs are wrong to telling them that they are bad and should feel guilty, especially if the doctrine say…

No, because the response is going to be "Yes you are", and we descend into a shouting match. I don't mean literally, the words you say must be "I'm not a jerk." I mean the defense must consist of a denial that the behavior was jerkish. If that's achieved by laying out standards for jerkishness, that's fine. The OP read to me as not even achieving that. It wasn't "we aren't jerks, because what we did wasn't jerky", it…

> The response explicitly acknowledges that they're trying to make people feel bad.

Let's start here: The point of Christianity is to make you holy, not to make you happy.

When you teach something like I Corinthians 13, if it's going to help anyone's life instead of being merely an academic exercise, you wind up saying "Yes, you really are supposed to love like this. Do you?" If that makes someone feel bad, well, that's not actually the point. The point is that they recognize that they don't love in the way that they should, and therefore see the need to change.

And if you're going to say that changing your life in that way isn't the job of a university, well, this is a Christian university, and they think it is exactly their job. And if you're a student there, then presumably that's what you wanted, too.

You (ikeboy) seem to want this Christian university to be a secular one. That is not a reasonable expectation.

Now, I recognize that there are lots of ways that "making them recognize that they don't love in the way that they should" can be manipulative and even abusive, but it is not inherently so. And the fact that people feel bad (guilty) along the way isn't a flaw, if in fact they are guilty in terms of the biblical standard. To repeat, the point of Christianity is to make you holy, not to make you happy.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#639

Post by mkrfox »

warfangle wrote: post #632
zaroth wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but accusing the entire community of deep rooted misogyny might have something to do with it?

Are you denying that there is deep rooted (if surface-subtle) misogyny obvious in the comment thread on just about every post about women in tech / safe places / gamergate / just about anything that challenges the authority of cis-gendered white men?

I think we both know how hard it is for people to look critically at their surroundings before someone points problems out directly. You might get further with example threads, and maybe a few specific examples of the worst offenders (so no one will fuss too much about you calling them out).

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#640

Post by bobthechef »

The old word for "safe-space" used to be "mental hospital". Seriously, if you think you can hold the world hostage to your issues, you are sadly deluded, sadly arrogant, and sadly self-centered. It's worse than childish. It's crazy. And no amount of Oprah-style false compassion can conceal that.

As for the horrifying collectivism and grandiose, mobbish character of the comments, direct the dagger inward at your own pride, arrogance, self-righteousness, and depraved views, as a personal goal of your life. Mind your own business. There is no "we".

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