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Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

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Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry my misunderstanding. When you said it sounded like you'd have to go to Java/JavaScript, I thought you meant for the application you've been writing. Either way, I meant that even before this announcement, Mono was a choice (I use it at fairly high-scale server apps) in many cases. It wasn't C# and Windows or Java for anything else.

Yeah, Mono was at least realistic in the last year(s), but it was always a bit of a guessing game whether something was going to work or not. Having an official linux/mac os ASP.NET will be huge, even if the functinoal difference is minor compared to Mono. Just knowing it will work tomorrow , and after the next major release is huge. Yesterday I would rather have chosen Node.js than a .NET solution for a small servic…

Node's like, one of the worst choices, due to the idiotic package manager. They ship essentially every function call as a separate package. It's actually a thing to take a dependency on "sha1" and literally pull in a package just for that one bit.

Using Node/Grunt/Bower to build a straightforward run end site (just to compile static outputs) required npm installing over 13 thousand files. Now imagine on a build server, starting clean, each time? Yeah, it takes a very long time just to download that stuff or do anything with it. Insane.

And at the end of it all, it's just JavaScript on the server, like ASP did in the 90s. With a cumbersome async API. OK.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#622
post #140

I know it's silly but I'm tearing up. I grew up with .NET but neglected it for years because of moving to OS X, iOS and web dev. I played for some time with Xamarin and I'm so happy this is where MS is going. a lot to do with it.

Is this Microsoft's runtime or Miguel's? I can't work out whether: - he's made it (if Mono is everywhere and now blessed by Microsoft) - he's ruined (if Microsoft's original Windows-only .net runtime is now everywhere, and there's no need for Mono) EDIT: apparently it's both - https://twitter.com/shanselman/status/532558786486370304

I would expect that Xamarin's role with Mono is analogous to 37signals\Basecamp is to Ruby on Rails. Neither organization makes money developing Mono nor RoR. They make their money supporting and consulting organizations that chose to use the software that they are developing.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#623
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing comments like this “I'll never switch back to MS for what they've done in the past” always reminds me of this post from Hanselman http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx

Hanselman is suggesting that we should just say Aww, shucks! and give Microsoft a big hug? He has so completely missed the deadly point that he's accidentally echoed it in his own post: Tons of people feel that Microsoft killed their Pappy. Nadella's actions tell me one thing: the free software movement has threatened their bottom line. This is not the time to back down, it's not the time to forgive and forget. This…

It's not mainly that free software threats their bottom line, it's rather that mobile and cloud is the future, and traditionally their bottom line was of course server and desktop.

So they are being very aggressive in the cloud and mobile area which is understandable. But where does this leave .NET, visual studio etc? Those are no longer the tools with which megacorps make their intranets, or where Photoshop and Call Of Duty is made. Cloud and mobile is about scale. They want thousands of cloud apps and mobile apps to be made. They can give their tools away and make money on tablets and azure. Azure runs Linux!

So making the tools free is a natural step in becoming a service company. Making them cross platform is natural since Microsoft now sells cross platform services.

No one thinks Microsoft isn't only concerned with their bottom line. It's not a charity. But that's not to say this is some kind of greedy trap. It's probably a good move for both devs and microsoft.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#624
post #598

Developers can get started with Visual Studio Community 2013 here. > http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/visual-studio-com... I think they meant here? http://www.visualstudio.com/news/vs2013-community-vs

thanks, i was searching this thread to get the correct link.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! I'm working on a team that inherited some Scala code from contractors that no longer work for us and we've found that (at least their) Scala is almost as hard to read as bad Perl. Compounding this is a severe lack of good online documentation outside of the standard library reference and simple tutorials which don't go into the depths we need to know (like how do you create a Manifest from Java to call int…

> we've found that (at least their) Scala is almost as hard to read as bad Perl. At least with Perl you have decades worth of online discussions and pretty good documentation of the core language. Programming languages you don't know are harder to read than programming languages you do know. Unlike "bad perl", you have types that tell you exactly what something does. > ... and simple tutorials which don't go into the…

> Programming languages you don't know are harder to read than programming languages you do know.

I will definitely agree with you there. It would help our team significantly if we had a Scala expert we could consult but there's not enough in the budget (monetary or political) to hire one. We are pretty much left to fend for ourselves with Google, Stack Overflow and a couple reference books. This project also contains a C++ component that would probably have been just as impenetrable to my teammates (who have C but no C++ experience) if I hadn't already been fairly familiar with the language.

> Unlike "bad perl", you have types that tell you exactly what something does.

Static typing doesn't help always when you actively try to subvert it. There are casts to and from Any all over this codebase. Reflection is used everywhere even when it's not necessary. There are even places where they convert between types by serializing an instance of one type and deserializing it as an instance of another (with similar fields but not actually related in the type system). They also loved Option[] types which might not be so bad if they weren't also storing Some(null) into them in just enough places you forget to check for it but it still blows up in your face at least a once a month. Basically, the original authors of this code tried their best to destroy the usefulness of the Scala type system and succeeded fairly well.

> Calling Scala from Java is not beginner level material that winds up in a tutorial, and it's a bad idea to begin with; you're stuck speaking a pidgin Scala using Java-only constructs just to maintain Java interop.

By mandate of our management we are not allowed to write any new Scala code except where absolutely necessary. The contractors went behind our management's back to write it in the first place (we told them they could use Java 8 which they interpreted to mean they could use anything that would run on a Java 8 JVM). After that was found out (about a 1/3 of the way through the contract and too late to rewrite everything without blowing our contractual deadline with our customer) new Scala code was banned and they had to (and we have to) use Java as much as possible after that point. This is also not helped by the fact that at the time they handed the code over it was barely half-baked and performing at less than 25% of the needed throughput and we're left trying to finish and fix it.

Of course, when it can take three or four developers (with a combined background in Java, C#, C, C++, Python, Javascript, and an academic familiarity with OCaml-family functional languages) a half hour or more to figure out what a some of the methods in this codebase even do (at both a syntatic and conceptual level) I am going to put (a small) part of the blame on Scala for allowing such impenetrable code to be written in the first place. I'm certainly not placing all or even a significant amount of the blame for this project's problems on Scala but it is certainly not helping.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#627
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/AnnouncingNET2015NETAsOpenSour... "There is a new FREE SKU for Visual Studio for open source developers and students called Visual Studio Community. It supports extensions and lots more all in one download. This is not Express. This is basically Pro."

See... I'm neither. I'm a single developer working on mostly closed source projects. As a result, I don't benefit too much from that. Also, I have a Mac and an Ubuntu laptop. So again, not much love from MS. Now I admit this is the early days of their open source push. That's fine. But until they make VS Pro free, across the board, I doubt non-MS shops will really pickup the platform. There isn't much of a win withou…

If you are less than 5 developers ;) then you're good. Check the details!

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#628
Neat. Maybe eventually they'll open source the OS too, but .NET is probably more significant.

I wanted some more specifics regarding licenses and found this page helpful: http://www.dotnetfoundation.org/projects

Hopefully one day they'll support the entire Java runtime so that I can deploy Java apps to the JRE or .NET.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#629
post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And googles attempts to get people to switch to chrome. That button really got on my nerves. As if it should matter to google what browser I use to view a website. Oh, wait, it does.

I think most of that targeted IE users.

Could be. I never used IE during that period though and I saw that button more than any other content on google properties.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#630
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that Option types are great, so great that I'm happy to work in a much 'weaker' language, use option types, and solve 90% of the problems that more 'theoretically robust' languages address with none of their downsides. As far as not understanding how awesome immutable data structure are.. I'd take a step back before you make assumptions about what other people understand. Do you know anything about cache hier…

> Do you know anything about cache hierarchy and memory models on modern CPUs? Yes. > Performance is important to some of us. ... and in those cases, you don't have to use data structures that model your problem domain poorly. The problem isn't "immutable data structures" or "theoretically robust" languages. The problem is finding ways to express computations and their constraints in a way that can be efficiently mod…

The problem with this logic is that you won't know about your performance problem until a system is scaled up to production level tasks - except if you build a comprehensive performance model beforehand, which takes about as long as the implementation (and is thus nonsensical for most tasks) and is really hard to do IMO in an FP language.

So what will probably happen is that once you see your performance problems, you can pray that it's only some hot spots that you can then replace with faster code - often it's not, so you have 100 places using around 1% of your time budget for example, which is when you can go and start over.

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