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Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

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Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#621

Post by da_chicken »

dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #424
da_chicken wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMX, it varies. At the hospital I worked, damaged equipment was replaced without question, but only doctors were issued laptops or iPaqs (this was pre-smartphone). If the same individual kept damaging equipment it went to the individual's lead or supervisor for disciplinary reasons, but I only ever saw that once when a guy threw three iPaqs against a wall (never found out why). At the school district I work, the poli…

> If the damage is intentional, then the staff member always pays. This comes up more often than you might expect. ? I’m guess the children example you mentioned might be one example of this?

That does happen and it is considered intentional, but, no I meant the staff themselves damaging them. Drawing on them (the screen in particular, which often doesn't come off cleanly), popping the keys off and on until they break, flexing parts of the case (hinge covers) until it breaks, getting angry and hitting the computer and breaking something. Anything you would expect a kid to do we've seen teachers admit to doing themselves.

Kids do that stuff too, but they also do stuff like break headphones off in the jack, punch a hole in the screen with a pen, gouge the screen with scissors or a hobby knife, smash them on the ground, stand on them, sit on them, etc.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#622

Post by lugg »

Osiris wrote: post #616
heelix wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the missing escape would be the thing that drove me nuts since I spend a reasonable chunk of my day in VI. Turns out, it is the damn siri button above the delete. Not quite sure how I keep hitting it.

Same here. After a few weeks I finally found out how to remove that button. Who wants to speak out loud to their laptop anyway?

Who?

People that type with two fingers and can't tell the difference between Safari and google.

You live in a bubble my friend. I've seen it in the wild and it's a marvel to watch how much they use it.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#623

Post by mcguire »

rayiner wrote: post #334
mcguire wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I have had to configure on the last two laptops I've installed is, weirdly, to go to sleep when I close the lid. The battery life on the X1 Carbon is about one and a half to two hours, which i think is acceptable given that the battery is reporting less than half of its original capacity.

So just 4 hours with a new battery? For light usage, the minimum is 8 hours. (Even my first-gen Macbook got that much, 12-13 years ago.)

This guy has a Windows 7 sticker, so I believe it is a 2012-2103 gen 1. 4-5 hours seems to be reasonable.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#624

Post by stevewodil »

makecheck wrote: post #606
deminature wrote: post #526

To play devil's advocate, I've fully adjusted to the butterfly keyboard design and find the travel of the older keys excessive and unnecessary work for my fingers. All my colleagues type 8hr+ a day on the butterfly keyboard without complaints. While I have experienced the annoyance of debris getting caught underneath keys, it seems like a problem of refinement of the design rather than tossing it out entirely, as man…

They can’t just “refine” it if their 3rd iteration still has problems and it’s been years . They would have been better off reverting. And honestly, I’m not sure I will trust them if they get up on stage again with another “all new” design. I want them to basically say “we went back to exactly the same design as our 2013 laptops”.

The next generation keyboard (I'm guessing) will be a sealed set of raised keys that uses the taptic engine to simulate a keypress, similar to how the touchpads on MacBooks work now. This will be a good change because not only will it fix the issues of dust and crumbs and outright key failure, but it could also provide some protection against small spills onto the keyboard.

I just purchased a 2018 MacBook Pro and I actually kind of enjoy using the keyboard, but I'm worried about keyboard failures in the future, and on a $2500 laptop I shouldn't have to worry about that. I'm considering returning it and waiting for a 2019 model with a redesigned keyboard, but I haven't completely decided yet...and it's possible that Apple will just refresh the 2019 MacBooks with new processors, and not address the keyboard issues this year.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#625

Post by stevewodil »

headsupftw wrote: post #384
lcnmrn wrote: post #374

Actually it's the best keyboard I ever type on. I just loved. I have a 13-inch MacBook Pro Touch Bar at work. It's fast and reliable with every key press.

I second this. You may hate the butterfly keyboard but I love it. So claiming the design has clearly failed is a little bit of a stretch.

The design has failed not because a majority of users dislike the feel of the keyboard. It's a failure because of, well, the failure rate of said keyboard...

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#626

Post by 1123581321 »

lrem wrote: post #493
camelNotation wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only are Thinkpad keyboards the most comfortable and satisfying on the market, you can literally pour water on them and it will drain out the bottom of the laptop without ever touching internal components. After using my Thinkpad for about six months, I can't go back. The keyboard is amazing, build quality is rock solid, screen is 4k with 100% RGB, and you can actually upgrade the thing. I buy a laptop because I…

Macbooks used to survive that too. My 2009-ish Pro got half a liter of sweet tea to the keyboard. Keypresses sounded crunchy for almost a year, but otherwise it worked fine.

I lost my 2009 MBP to a smaller water spill than that on the keyboard, so I don’t think there was any special design reason yours survived. Additionally, I don’t remember any special claims about those models and liquids.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#627

Post by icedchai »

m463 wrote: post #582
martinpw wrote: post #348

The Benjamin Button review of improvements in older Macs compared with newer ones: https://blog.pinboard.in/2016/10/benjamin_button_reviews_the...

I think my 2007-ish macbook pro had the best keyboard of all. Light action concave keys I don't think that the superiority of concave keys gets the attention it deserves. - the keys fit your finger better - the force of the keypress is evenly distributed across the surface of your finger, especially as the key bottoms out. New keyboards deform your finger pad as you press down and are less comfortable. - the concave…

yes, this early style MacBook Pro keyboard was my favorite, as well! I could never understand the preference for the newer ("chiclet") keyboards.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#628

Post by NullPrefix »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #612
currysausage wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the specs [1], the X1 Carbon Gen 3 does have a spill-resistant keyboard, and the current Gen 6 too. Given the compact design, maybe the liquid just couldn't escape from under the laptop in time, so it soaked the motherboard from below? [1] https://www.lenovo.com/au/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/X1-...

Yeah, it definitely wasn’t the keyboard that was the biggest issue, it was the motherboard. I guess a spill resistant keyboard is great, but if you don’t have a spill resistant motherboard...

Spill resistant keyboard means there are slits inside that channel the water under the laptop without it reaching the motherboard.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#629

Post by Matthias247 »

camelNotation wrote: post #410
cmiles74 wrote: post #324

A co-worked of mine convinced the company to buy them a MacBook (the first the company has ever purchased) to replace their aging Dell laptop. They have been doing more and more work on the company's iOS app and the aging Mac mini the company had purchased needed to replaced anyway. After having the laptop for just over a year, they called me upset as the laptop would no longer power on. After some gentle interrogati…

Not only are Thinkpad keyboards the most comfortable and satisfying on the market, you can literally pour water on them and it will drain out the bottom of the laptop without ever touching internal components. After using my Thinkpad for about six months, I can't go back. The keyboard is amazing, build quality is rock solid, screen is 4k with 100% RGB, and you can actually upgrade the thing. I buy a laptop because I…

The keyboards are good (although I'm also totally fine with the Macbook 2015 keyboard). However Lenovo and all others in the windows universe can't provide any touchpad experience that is close to what Apple can offer.

On my last Thinkpad I mostly opted to use an external mouse. On my Macbook I absolutely don't miss it.

Re: Its butterfly keyboard design has failed, but Apple has yet to admit its mistake

#630

Post by lrem »

1123581321 wrote: post #626
lrem wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macbooks used to survive that too. My 2009-ish Pro got half a liter of sweet tea to the keyboard. Keypresses sounded crunchy for almost a year, but otherwise it worked fine.

I lost my 2009 MBP to a smaller water spill than that on the keyboard, so I don’t think there was any special design reason yours survived. Additionally, I don’t remember any special claims about those models and liquids.

It had a big plastic plane below the keyboard. Not the watertight with a drain hole type of Thinkpads, but still good enough if you're quick with turning the thing upside down.
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