Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#621

Post by astrodust » Sat, May 05, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #353

ryanobjc wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liberalness of Canada is overhyped. The reality is Canada is deeply conservative. It's possible to have universal health care and be conservative, that's only a oxymoron in the US. To quote this excellent article[1]: "the default setting of the Canadian male: a dull but stern dad, who, under a facade of apparent normalcy and common sense, conceals a reserve of barely contained hostility toward anyone who might ro…

Honestly I gotta agree with you here, bud. When I was growing up in Canada I had to keep my dreams a secret. If you had any grand goals people thought you were an egomaniacal weirdo. It wasn't until I seriously dated someone here in the US that I realized the difference: as part of the "delving into each others' inner lives" phase of the early relationship, I sheepishly admitted I had dreams of doing some pretty big…

That's part of the "tall poppy" culture endemic to Canada and other British colonies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

You stand out, you become a target.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#622

Post by ttul » Sat, May 05, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

a-priori wrote: post #223

mabbo wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting Amazon Toronto starts new grads at like $80-100k last I heard. It's not as good as you can get in Silicon Valley, but rent in Toronto (while still high) is much lower than in the Valley.

For another data point: I'm an Amazon SDE2 in Ottawa making CA$225k total compensation this year (about 2/3 of that is salary). That's very good pay locally. I'm not sure I can match that anywhere else in the city. I might be able to get better in the States, even after cost-of-living increases, but what quality of life gain would there be? Would it be worthwhile to have to deal with all the crazy shit with the educa…

Holy cow - $255K in _Ottawa_... that’s living the dream, man.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#623

Post by astrodust » Sat, May 05, 2018, 3:58 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #581

rayiner wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in the USA it's normal for everyone to have big dreams, and weird if they don't. I think I like it It makes Americans easily manipulated and exploited.

That’s unfair - any stable trait of any community will be used by people to manipulate and exploit them.

Not every trait is equally exploitable.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#624

Post by astrodust » Sat, May 05, 2018, 4:02 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #168

ryanobjc wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liberalness of Canada is overhyped. The reality is Canada is deeply conservative. It's possible to have universal health care and be conservative, that's only a oxymoron in the US. To quote this excellent article[1]: "the default setting of the Canadian male: a dull but stern dad, who, under a facade of apparent normalcy and common sense, conceals a reserve of barely contained hostility toward anyone who might ro…

A lot of Canada's GDP seems to come from mining, and some of it seems to come from places that could be disrupted by technology or ecological concerns, so I'm not surprised at resistance to disruption.

Mining is a bit of a paradox. Historically mining companies were the "start-ups" of their day.

When you discovered a deposit you'd stake a claim (e.g. patent) and then seek investors to exploit it (e.g. venture funding). If the discovery turned out to be genuine and the mine was successful the returns would often be extraordinary.

Thing is, a lot of mines fail. Maybe there's resources there but extracting them isn't practical or profitable. Maybe there wasn't as much there as theorized. Maybe it was all a lie.

The paradox is that once you have a successful mining industry built up, people think of those as the conservative play, the safe bet, and are reluctant to go through that process all over again with a new industry.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#625

Post by api » Sat, May 05, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

neuromantik8086 wrote: post #613

antoniuschan99 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the East Coast vs West Coast mentality. West coast has always been about experiment wheareas east coast is more conservative. I've always wondered if it was because the Europeans took hold of the East coast first and it was only the more brave who would take on the Westword journey. Perhaps that mentality is still engrained in the culture? I think Dragons Den vs Shark Tank is a clear example of how much stronger…

I hear this explanation floated around a lot, but I have extreme doubts that it has any bearing in reality. I live in NYC, and it's not that we're adverse to experimentation. Far from it; we mix and match cultures obsessively until the most bizarre "only in New York" moments come about. Instead, New Yorkers are more likely to call bullshit on an idea when it isn't good or at a minimum challenge it to be better. You d…

I have lived on both coasts and the biggest difference I have noticed is the strength of the elite university caste system in the East. It felt like if you didn't go to a top ten school you had a glass ceiling.

It exists out West too but in my experience so far is less prevalent and is given less weight. People out East often start a presentation, pitch, or interview with where they went to school. Out West I have done a dozen VC meetings and have only been asked once or twice and I didn't get the impression it was a major data point for them.

Dominant mentalities are:

East: who are you? What is your background?

West: what can you do?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#626

Post by christocracy » Sat, May 05, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

mmt wrote: post #430

christocracy wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real-estate (in addition to associated construction) is bigger for than mining and oil: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/g...

But can one really count that, at least in the context of how the people understand where their money really comes from? Consider the adage, "Buy land: they don't make it any more." A growth in the value of land isn't, in and of itself, an actual product, though I do agree the construction is. However, how much of that construction is actually in service of a different industry (i.e. would never have happened but for…

Certainly not all that construction is related to real-estate. Still real-estate as a % of GDP eclipses "mining, Oil & Gas".

http://www.investorsfriend.com/canadian-gdp-canadian-imports...

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#627

Post by dagmx » Sat, May 05, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #209

r-s wrote: post #166

Canadian tech worker here. Base salary is 120k CAD in Calgary which is far above market rate but I am educated, experienced etc. That is 93k USD. I am looking to move to the USA because of higher salaries, but I am not 22 years old anymore and moving a family (with 2 earners) is no easy task. It falls on deaf ears though, 120k CAD is a good income, I can afford a house, cars, no debts etc so there is very little unde…

In Silicon Valley, most likely you are not going to afford a house anyway.. .

As a Canadian in Vancouver who owns a home, the sad state of Vancouver is even the suburbs are ridiculously expensive.

If I want to sell my downtown townhouse and buy a detached home or upgrade in any way I'm looking at a 1.5 hour commute easily and still not getting much. And once you're outside downtown , entertainment etc rapidly drops off.

Alternatively in the bay area, where I may soon be moving, the suburbs have a strong drop off in cost from the hotspots while still maintaining a reasonable commute and quality of life.

The issue is, Vancouver's infrastructure drops off so dramatically as you get further from downtown.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#628

Post by swat535 » Sat, May 05, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #217

r-s wrote: post #166

Canadian tech worker here. Base salary is 120k CAD in Calgary which is far above market rate but I am educated, experienced etc. That is 93k USD. I am looking to move to the USA because of higher salaries, but I am not 22 years old anymore and moving a family (with 2 earners) is no easy task. It falls on deaf ears though, 120k CAD is a good income, I can afford a house, cars, no debts etc so there is very little unde…

I do remote work for this reason. Although I did manage to recently find a contractor position that pays competitively here in Canada, I find that very rarely. If you do remote contract work, mostly for US or Swiss companies, you can make 2-3x a top Canadian salary. Just throwing that out there as an alternative to moving to the US.

Well this is interesting..

Based on my own experience of finding remote work for US companies.

I usually get lowballed on the offers because I am based in Canada.

In other words, US companies pay average salaries calculated based on my local salary rates.

In fact I just had a phone interview with a SF startup for a remote position and they were shocked to hear that I was asking for an AVG salary rate in SF instead of Canada.

Not sure if this is the norm for everyone.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#629

Post by WiseWeasel » Sat, May 05, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

neuromantik8086 wrote: post #614

privacypoller wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad has a good saying: "what takes three hundred years to accomplish in western Europe takes 3 generations on the east coast, takes 30 years on the west coast". Not surprisingly they moved out west soon after school and I've been forever poisoned to the east!

Yeah, that's why Germany has maglevs and high speed rail and California can barely get it's own HSR off the ground. That's a truly awful saying that's emblematic of the stupid prejudices brought about by American exceptionalism and the even more obnoxious (to me) West Coast exceptionalism.

As much as I nodded along with your exasperation at the parent poster's (father's) demonstration of bias, you can't compare long-distance public transportation infrastructure in places with the population densities and growth rates of Germany and California, two extremes in that sense. California has 1/5 more area, with half the population, and that population has almost doubled over the last 35 years, versus a few % growth in Germany.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#630

Post by neuromantik8086 » Sat, May 05, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

api wrote: post #625

neuromantik8086 wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this explanation floated around a lot, but I have extreme doubts that it has any bearing in reality. I live in NYC, and it's not that we're adverse to experimentation. Far from it; we mix and match cultures obsessively until the most bizarre "only in New York" moments come about. Instead, New Yorkers are more likely to call bullshit on an idea when it isn't good or at a minimum challenge it to be better. You d…

I have lived on both coasts and the biggest difference I have noticed is the strength of the elite university caste system in the East. It felt like if you didn't go to a top ten school you had a glass ceiling. It exists out West too but in my experience so far is less prevalent and is given less weight. People out East often start a presentation, pitch, or interview with where they went to school. Out West I have do…

I've never lived outside of the East Coast / mid-West, but what you're saying sounds feasible. That said, I'd guess that the "who are you? What is your background?" question is more of a Boston thing than a New York thing, since New York doesn't have the Puritan / Boston Brahman caste system. I've known of a number of people who went to state schools or random unknown schools in New Jersey who've done reasonably well here.