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Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

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421–430 of 715 posts

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#421
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of immigrant tech talent in Canada is inherently risk averse by virtue of being primarily chinese and indian tech workers Aren't a lot of immigrant tech talent in Silicon Valley Chinese and Indian too? Or maybe even the majority? Besides, China has a very vibrant VC culture, second only to the US. Therefore being Chinese and being risk taking are definitely not in conflict.

> Therefore being Chinese and being risk taking are definitely not in conflict. I think the author is pointing out that being a Chinese/Indian immigrant is in conflict with risk taking. You don't have to look too hard for this. Most Chinese/Indian immigrants gravitate to low-risk jobs, specifically at larger companies, usually for visa/immigration related issues.

> Most Chinese/Indian immigrants gravitate to low-risk jobs, specifically at larger companies, usually for visa/immigration related issues.

Seems to me that the risk-aversion is caused by their (not-yet-)immigrant status, not their cultural roots.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#422
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Average house in Toronto or Vancouver costs about the same as in the valley. I don't think that's accurate. I was just in Vancouver last week and took a peek at the real estate listings. I could sell my 1734 sq ft house here in the Bay Area, get one twice as big in Vancouver, and still have quite a lot left over.

You'd have hard time finding an acceptable house that size for less than 1.5M USD in Toronto. Vancouver is slightly higher.

Sure, but a house of that size in the bay area is $3.3M USD.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#423
post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

No Canadian companies need to pay more. I suspect that Canada has inherited from the UK the attitude that STEM (apart from the Medical profession) is basically for greasy engineers who shouldn't be allowed to get to above themselves.

And improve the weather.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG can only hire so many engineers, the positions tend to be highly competitive, they pull them from all over the world, and the drop-off in compensation at the next level is pretty significant.

Can Canadian programmers good enough to be hired by FAANG be paid similar salaries in Canada?

No, that's the whole point of this discussion.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you can't afford a house in Vancouver either so why not go to the USA and earn more. The spot with the best balance seems to be Seattle. High salaries and housing relatively affordable when compared to Vancouver or SF.

Seattle's housing market is going up really quickly, though. Last time I moved, I definitely noticed higher rents and more expensive purchase prices compared to a few years ago. It's not yet at the level of Vancouver, and far from SF/NY levels, but its trajectory isn't great.

Sounds like a good time to buy a house in Seattle then, if you can afford it.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#426
post #388
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunnyvale (current ground zero of Apple) median is close to 2M - that is only 5x of $400K which a lot of FANG and other engineers pull yearly (and that is the main reason for current SV home prices as, during such low mortgage rates, the market is naturally self-adjusting to 5-6x of prevalent salaries. In 2008 those houses were $700-800K+ - the 5-6x of those $120K-150K salaries back then).

Is 400k really for a lot of engineers? How many years of experience?

Seems way too high to me (I even used to work at Netflix as an engineer years ago).

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#427

Working for Microsoft, and moved to Seattle, WA last year, after having lived in Vancouver, BC for about 1.5 year. I can confirm this trend for several reasons: 1) The pay gap is real. Many get about a 40% pay increase by moving 3 hours down south. It's significant. 2) Taxes are aprox 10% lower in Seattle. Makes a difference too. 3) Rent-net-pay-ratio is about the same for Vancouver/Seattle 4) For a tech worker the h…

> Rent-net-pay-ratio is about the same for Vancouver/Seattle

Doesn't that mean that Seattle is the same as Vancouver financially? If so, why not stay in Vancouver?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#428
post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

The is anecdotal, but it has happened often for me to meet people in Canada doing non-engineering work even tho they have an engineering degree from their home country, something about their education not being recognized in Canada, thus they end up being cab drivers.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#429
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Aggressively pursue the brightest non-American engineers, who are hesitant to move to USA because of immigration restrictions. This is an interesting point. I feel like Canada does do this, but it sort of backfires on itself. Something my wife once pointed out is that a lot of immigrant tech talent in Canada is inherently risk averse by virtue of being primarily chinese and indian tech workers, whose cultures are…

> a lot of immigrant tech talent in Canada is inherently risk averse by virtue of being primarily chinese and indian tech workers Aren't a lot of immigrant tech talent in Silicon Valley Chinese and Indian too? Or maybe even the majority? Besides, China has a very vibrant VC culture, second only to the US. Therefore being Chinese and being risk taking are definitely not in conflict.

There's definitely a significant difference in cultural strength between chinese immigrants in SF and in Toronto. Basically what I think it boils down to is that the Toronto chinese community is extremely self-sufficient - insular, even.

My chinese in-laws can comfortably live there without speaking a word of English because there's that much chinese cultural infrastructure - from church groups to supermarkets to gardeners, handymen, doctors and real estate agents whose _entire clientele_ is 1st-gen chinese. Chatting with the neighbor in chinese about so-and-so's grandson is a fairly normal thing.

In contrast, my wife would consider the chinese community in SF heavily "americanised" - Similar to how Sao Paulo has "nihongakkous" (immersion schools for 2nd/3rd gen japanese), some schools in SF have "immersion" programs. These basically indicate that the community as a whole doesn't have cultural momentum to imprint onto new generations. By contrast, at my kid's kindergarten in Toronto, the teacher would at times actively have to discourage kids from speaking chinese in class (when it would be disruptive/exclusionary to the minorities - caucasians - of the class)!

WRT VC culture, my understanding is that in China, there's a great deal of literal politics (IIRC, Didi and many other prominent startups were owned by family members of prominent politicians), but that culturally speaking, "success" tends to be narrowly defined as doing well in school and getting a socially desirable job after that. I'm told that indians have similar cultural pressure to raise to management positions. (Women have it even worse, with pressure to get married in their 20s, give their parents grandchildren, etc). I feel like in SF, tech workers are heavily immersed in liberal ideas (e.g. risk taking, individualism) and tend to "detach" from their birth culture to a much higher degree than in Toronto.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of Canada's GDP seems to come from mining, and some of it seems to come from places that could be disrupted by technology or ecological concerns, so I'm not surprised at resistance to disruption.

Real-estate (in addition to associated construction) is bigger for than mining and oil: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/g...

But can one really count that, at least in the context of how the people understand where their money really comes from? Consider the adage, "Buy land: they don't make it any more."

A growth in the value of land isn't, in and of itself, an actual product, though I do agree the construction is. However, how much of that construction is actually in service of a different industry (i.e. would never have happened but for, say, mining and oil)? Similarly, how much of that real estate value would drop to approximately zero if the industries supporting it disappeared?

I'm sure there's some construction, especially residential, that must be happening just due to population growth, but I'm skeptical if that accounts for even a majority of that number.

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