611–620 of 635 posts
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I think his point might be that once you reach adulthood, you're responsible for your actions, such as how much you drink. Hotels and conferences expect you to control how much you drink. You're really blaming the conference for making you drink too much?? Who held you down and poured the champagne down your throat?
I am, and I've given my reasons. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6538740
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> Is it not rape if you don't resist? It's not rape if the other person has no way of telling that you want them to stop.
I know we're all programmers here but stop trying to build rules and logic around this. We all (should) have the common sense to understand when something is rape and when something is not. There is no trigger, there is no conditional, there is no callback, it just is and people who fail to understand this make me sick. A number of people's lives have been forever changed by the recently surfaced actions and instead…
What is not easy to understand is how people don't understand this. :\
I apologize to the world for this thread. There are clearly topics that an open forum, or at least this one, can't be trusted with, and this seems to be one of them. We have some ideas for new moderation features that we hope will make comment threads more civil. I don't know if they would have helped in this case though. The one thing that did work here is the flamewar detector. This story dropped off the frontpage…
I was one of those people. I apologise if I brought more heat than light.
(Civility isn't even the main problem here - so many of people's comments were superficially civil but callous and misinformed. HN needs empathy, compassion, willingness to listen. It's not impossible to shift culture - Metafilter has improved a lot, but doing that required human effort from its leaders and not just software.)
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> She must have at least expected something, no? No. A body shot is not an invitation for anything. A body shot taken from a girl with a boyfriend is not an invitation for anything. A body shot taken from a girl with a boyfriend, while hanging out in a bar with 'geeky guys' that just 'loosened up' is not an invitation for anything. If you think it is, you have a problem. To answer your question again: no. Just no. No…
So you regularly see body shots in a non-sexual content? When could she expect it, then? What would have made the difference between this body shot and a "normal" body shot? I am not saying it was an invitation. It might not be but she cannot possibly do a body shot without expecting a fully grown alpha male to take his chances. Even if she didn't, she could have easily denied him the opportunity when things started…
As someone's boss, you don't french-kiss someone then-and-there, on the bar, in front of colleagues and peers. That's not just taking chances, that's a display of dominance over both her and the colleagues and peers. It's true ape-like behavior and most people aren't prepared for that anymore, in any context. No matter how drunk they were, most present would still have gone: "WTF is happening here?" when that happened in front of them.
Now bypassing that, accepting that this has happened, then the following is still baffling. She isn't reciprocating. You cannot not notice that and you should back down at that point.
Bypassing that, accepting that he didn't notice or severely misjudged, then you still don't engage in sexual behavior right then-and-there, in the open. There are only few persons in few circumstances that enjoy such public displays of sexual behavior. Most people wouldn't ever, in any state of mind, with any girl, perform this behavior. They wouldn't do it if the girl was naked and asking for it. Let alone if she was clothed and her feelings towards such behavior were entirely unknown.
> she could have easily denied him the opportunity
In your abstraction of what happened and an abstraction of human beings, she could have. In the actual situation, with actual people and all their idiosynchrasies and their history together: no, she couldn't. She didn't. And in the end that still boils down to this: the fact that she didn't resist does not mean she is guilty and he is innocent. He behaved like an asshole, whether she resisted or not. He shouldn't have behaved like that, whether she resisted or not. Most people would never in their right or drunken minds behave like that or wish others to behave like that. He was wrong.
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I was one of those people. I apologise if I brought more heat than light.
You did an admirable job of responding to piles of comments that needed Consent 101. (Civility isn't even the main problem here - so many of people's comments were superficially civil but callous and misinformed. HN needs empathy, compassion, willingness to listen. It's not impossible to shift culture - Metafilter has improved a lot, but doing that required human effort from its leaders and not just software.)
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They fired him. They appear to have provided support to her. She could go to the police and file a report. It's traumatic, and unlikely to have any effect. But it is not possible for the firm to say "We sacked Bob because he sexually assaulted one of our staff".
"But it is not possible for the firm to say "We sacked Bob because he sexually assaulted one of our staff"." Why not? The event in question happened in a public setting, while her boss was acting in something of an official capacity (it was a work related event). To me, that demands a public acknowledgement and treatment of what happened.
Innocent until proven guilty is a firm principle.
Accusing someone of a sex crime will have very serious consequences for that person.
She has said that she doesn't want to involve legal processes. When the company publicly says that he assaulted her they force the legal processes to start - either he sues for defamation or police get involved.
I apologize to the world for this thread. There are clearly topics that an open forum, or at least this one, can't be trusted with, and this seems to be one of them. We have some ideas for new moderation features that we hope will make comment threads more civil. I don't know if they would have helped in this case though. The one thing that did work here is the flamewar detector. This story dropped off the frontpage…
Why has she not reported this to the police? Why did HR not do it also? Sexual assault is defined in law, and many people are (rightly) convicted and imprisoned over these serious offences every year. Justine is not averse to talking about the issue with strangers over the Internet; why is the law any different? In order to secure an arrest, the police need to be satisfied a crime has occurred (multiple witnesses are…
It's often very hard for a victim to report a sexual assault. I hope she does, but you can't force someone to.
The author is happy to broadcast their account of this alleged assault to the public, so I don't think they'd have an issue reporting it to the authorities with the help of a charity. Statute of limitations is a few years on this so there is still time.
If you've nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. This cuts both ways in a court of law, and the claims of an accuser are seldom taken at face value without reliable independent witness. It is innocent until proven guilty, so that the facts of the case can be used to ascertain guilt.
If the author really cares about justice, about women in IT, about sending a message, then they will do the right thing and prosecute. Unless of course the author is lying (wouldn't be the first time it has happened in a sexual assault case)...
I'm sick of this bullshit convention culture that allows stuff like this to happen. The CodeMash sponsors should be fleeing from the event and be embarrassed. I'm a fucking professional, not a frat boy. I like to socially drink as much as the next person but a fucking professional convention is not the place for it. CodeMash is responsible for this incident; they created a situation where a woman, overwhelming minori…
Where's your ire and indignation for the bartenders, hotel staff, and the firm where they both worked? Codemash, its organizers and sponsors aren't even on the radar for "people not actually the assailant yet are somehow responsible for the assailant's behavior."
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It's often very hard for a victim to report a sexual assault. I hope she does, but you can't force someone to.
That is simply not the case. This is America, not Africa. There are scores of charities and organisations that can help. With some cursory Googling: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/legal-information . The author is happy to broadcast their account of this alleged assault to the public, so I don't think they'd have an issue reporting it to the authorities with the help of a charity. Statute of limitations is a fe…