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We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

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Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you linked to is not really evidence , just an unsubstantiated allegation. Over the top public shaming is something that should be pretty easy to provide direct evidence of. When Linus Torvalds does it, it gets repeatedly brought up in forums like this for many years.

I have no reason to believe it is a lie, and it sounds plausible. A 'public shaming' should be a last resort is my assertion, and I stand by it.

> I have no reason to believe it is a lie, and it sounds plausible

Except for all of the responses from people saying it doesn't sound plausible for the project in question, and for the acute lack of real evidence or even details to accompany the allegation.

Additionally, I think "last resort" is way too high a bar. It's totally reasonable for an open source project to have a zero-tolerance policy for AI-generated spam patches or bug reports, and to respond with public shaming after the first offense. Nobody should be expected to make any allowance for such egregious behavior.

A user who is genuine but simply doesn't know how to usefully communicate about their problem doesn't deserve that treatment and should simply be ignored if the devs don't have time to engage in the interrogation necessary to extract a useful bug report. But if the user decides to try to use an LLM to compensate for a lack of content in their bug report, that user would be earning a negative response by making a bad decision. (If you're going to use an LLM, ask it how to write a bug report, rather than asking it to make up a bug report for you.)

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#612
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've been getting PRs? All I've ever seen is "can you assign this issue you me" spam and then disappear. I was nice to them for years but now I just delete the comment and block the users.

Yeah, the "can you assign the issue to me" is the most common. I don't even understand where it came from - does anyone ever actually formally assign issues to anyone? But they absolutely also create PRs even if you say "don't create a PR. You don't know what you're talking about"

I'm pretty sure there's some guru/teacher that gives assignments to their students. The assignment is most likely "find a repo and ask if you can work on it." The student then either finds something easier to work on or gets points just for trying.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#613
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading between the lines a bit, but I think the point is that public ridicule and personal attacks as well a general lack professionalism is a page out of his book. So I think OP is trying to insinuate POTUS' behavior inspires a general lack of decorum, a la trickle-down dickonomics. Which is a sentiment I can't in good faith disagree with entirely, but it seems like a stretch in this case.

is public ridiculing of somebody who intentionally submits garbage in order to potentially earn a few bucks a bad thing? it's like with patent trolls, dragging their shady actions to public and ridiculing them is best thing that can happen

I get your point, but regardless of how justified it may seem, I find behaving that way just isn't nearly as effective as kindness.

When I'm not being conscious, I tend to be pretty negative or sarcastic and even trend towards passive aggressive. I've found it to be rather damaging for a number of reasons.

I find when I choose kindness, not only is it more effective at accomplishing my goals, but I am happier and I set a better example for those around me. I find the kinder I respond ESPECIALLY in situations where it feels undeserved, the more positive impact it has.

To put it in more cliche terms, I want the world to be a kinder place, and I am trying to be the change I seek.

So yeah, personally I think it's a bad thing. Ban em, sure. But why take it any further? And FWIW, I'm sure the "threat" of ridicule is more tongue in cheek than anything, I was just trying to elaborate on what I suspected the other commenter was intimating.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#614

Long time ago Sourceforge and then GitHub promoted into the current default the model of open source distribution which is not sustainable and I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind. Open source licenses are about freedom of using and modifying software. The movement grew out of frustration that commercial software cannot be freely improved and fixed by the user to…

> I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind.

From the beginning, GNU projects welcomed contributions, and discussions of bugs and features were in the public. Sure it was on mailing lists, not on Github, but it was more than just shipping sources with the binaries.

That isn't to say you have to accept third party pull requests and have an open bug tracker to be free software/open source. Sqlite is a famous example that doesn't follow that model.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Payment in units other than dollars is still payment. If I get paid in bitcoins, the bitcoin market could completely collapse before I cash out. It's not different than that. I can't pay my rent or my server bills in "prestige". Entirely different.

I can't pay my rent or server bills in "bitcoins". I need to leverage my bitcoins in some way to get "dollars" that I can then pay my bills with. Non-monetary payment is still payment. Rare pokémon cards are payment too. Also, in fact, people get things that otherwise cost money all the time based on prestige.

You absolutely can, because you can sell the bitcoins and turn them directly into money in your savings account. There are exchanges that declare their exact value. You can't do that with prestige. There's no exchange and no market.

Crucially, money, bitcoin, and pokemon cards are all transferrable. You can't transfer prestige to someone else, so it has no value in financial transactions.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#617
post #588
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a few weeks into that arbitrage traders will catch wind and start betting on the more likely bug closures and then the devs that fix the bug will end up owing money!

Then, the people who actually want the fix will bet it back up so the dev is incentivized to fix it!

People who work on making money, tend to have more money and leverage. It’s not an even playing field.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll get downvoted to oblivion because outsiders often don't realize the ridiculousness of the whole thing. I will try to give some context. To give an example, the CSE undergrad from an average Indian college would've done 500 - 1000 leetcode "problems" for practice. But have little to no idea on how to survive in a UNIX shell, or to troubleshoot an actual problem. Hell, half of them haven't written more t…

this is a problem with all indian "education". I work in renewable energy and regularly chat with other Indians at IEEE conferences who are looking for work in the West. These supposed electrical "engineers" have an IEEE "paper" to their name but regularly confuse power and energy. They have no curiosity, no interest in their work, atrocious communication skills (not language, communication) and swarm you like piranh…

> These supposed electrical "engineers" have an IEEE "paper" to their name

"publication" is encouraged or in some cases "mandated" in certain institutions for course points. It's a lecherous system to game certain metrics which leads to pretend-play and not an ounce of productive work.

> there's not much you can do to help them or to find them.

In CS, If you want to find talented Indian folk, you can hang out in IRCs, hobbyist forums etc.. I have few friends who were Linux enthusiasts, compiler experts etc... who used to. Genuine interest is a pretty good initial filter.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#619

Long time ago Sourceforge and then GitHub promoted into the current default the model of open source distribution which is not sustainable and I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind. Open source licenses are about freedom of using and modifying software. The movement grew out of frustration that commercial software cannot be freely improved and fixed by the user to…

Years ago, I built what I thought was a pretty basic static site generator using HapiJS. I was using it for personal projects and after some convincing by friends, put it up on Github. My friends went on Reddit and posted it and then told me about it afterwards. It initially got some decent traction and then all of a sudden, all the pull requests came, all the feature requests and then all the bug reports. I kept tel…

Been there, done that, built walls.

If you allow me to go on a meandering tangent/exploration:

___

I mean if you think about it, this outcome is more or less inevitable, given the environment we've created.

The foundational building block being that people will always optimize for their own benefit and personal gain. They fundamentally have to, because no one else will. So that gives us a natural source of conflict, because not everyone is a builder (or at least not everyone believes that they would), meaning that they need to get someone else to do what they want to get done.

You as a builder of course operate no different to that. You also want to optimize for your own personal gain. Where it is different though is that you do not rely that much on external resources to do that, given that you can create by your own.

So these are our building blocks.

To have a functioning societal system, we do want and need to allow people that don't to receive a decent-ish slice of the output of those that create for various reasons.

Something something shared humanity, but also the fact that a society built out of autonomous builders quickly collapses. Plus multi-dimensionality, meaning that person A might be a builder in discipline X, but needs others to sustain themself in discipline Y. Society and all. Shared workload.

The mechanism that regulates the flow of resources between these agents is friction.

For example, social shaming for not sharing the fair part of what you're earning is friction. That is a constant eroding force and cost that is supposed to shift your internal mental calculus to make contributing to society the most sensible outcome.

Equally so, the act of being protective of your time, demanding respect, boundaries and fair compensation is friction that is supposed to shift someone else's mental calculus to make fair treatment of you the most sensible outcome.

____

Okay, many words, but what the fuck am I on about?

Here's where this self-regulating system implodes:

In the last two decades or so, we have absolutely supercharged the mechanism of shaming and public pressure (rel: Twitter).

Simultaneously though, we've also _vastly_ nerfed any forms of friction a builder might employ. (rel: GitHub as the default, being "nice and professional" as the default, etc.)

And that is what simply is not working. But we're not talking about that properly, because any platforms we currently have for talking about stuff are absolutely and utterly dominated by those that do not create; meaning that they get to dictate the rules.

In a very unsustainable way of course (see also collapse of democracy in general) but that is still the reality we find us in.

___

And that is _I think_ also where we can find solutions to these problems. Don't get me wrong, I'm not proposing to return to linus and tell people that they should be retroactively aborted for having made a mistake. There were many very important advancements we made culturally to push out toxicity.

We will need to reintroduce friction though.

Likewise, we will need re-engineer our communication spaces to shift the balance of power back to a sustainable equilibrium. Which doesn't mean "cold uncaring meritocracy" (also, what even is merit?) but it will mean not handing out ever-larger megaphones based on who is already screaming the loudest.

___

Anyway, TL;DR:

It's the system, stupid. It is like this, because it can't be any else given the currently governing rules.

Thanks for attending my Ted Talk.

Re: We will ban you and ridicule you in public if you waste our time on crap reports

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This comes off as childish to me and makes me think that I'd rather not contribute to the project. It's unfortunately the new normal, with FFmpeg's core team acting similarly. No doubt the result of what is considered socially acceptable expanding in ways it probably shouldn't.

that is a view many hold, until its their own time being wasted. Consider the responsibility these people have and take on their shoulders, only for a bunch of idiots to consider their AI slop worthy of pissing up and down their face. Most of them probably even know its just AI slop spraying spree

Many people deal with worse every day and don't resort to acting like a child.
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