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Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

reuters.com

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Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#611

Post by newspaper1 »

loeg wrote: post #565
wut42 wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! >Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk and produce the devastating scenes that continue to unfold across Lebanon today. The use of an explosive device whose exact location could not be reliably known would be unlawfully ind…

These are not booby traps.

According to that definition they are:

"booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use"

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#612

Post by dredmorbius »

tptacek wrote: post #213
mrtksn wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly it’s one thing to target operatives it’s another thing to target large number of people when they’re among the civilians. Phone exploding in a market, doesn’t make it OK if the owner of the phone is a militant. With that logic the Hamas terrorist attack last year isn’t a terrorist attack because many of the victims served in the IDF, which illegally occupies their territory. This is getting ridiculous. Israel…

Under International Humanitarian Law it absolutely does make it OK if the owner of the phone is a militant. This is black letter Law of Armed Combat.

For those unfamiliar with terms:

"Black Letter Law":

In common law legal systems, black-letter law refers to well-established legal rules that are no longer subject to reasonable dispute.[1] Black-letter law can be contrasted with legal theory or unsettled legal issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-letter_law>

Searching for black letter and combat turns up:

International Institute of Humanitarian Law: The Manual on the Law of Non-International Armed Conflict With Commentary (2006)

Among definitions:

For the purposes of this Manual, fighters are members of armed forces and dissident armed forces or other organized armed groups, or taking an active (direct) part in hostilities.

(p. 4)

Civilians are all those who are not fighters.

(p. 5)

Military objectives are objects which by their nature, location, purpose, or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture, or neutralisation, in the circumstances at the time, offers a definite military advantage.

(p. 5)

https://www.humanrightsvoices.org/assets/attachments/documen...>

(I'll note that one of the co-authors is affiliated with Tel Aviv University in Israel, though others do not appear to be Israeli.)

The US DoD publishes a law of war manual, last updated in 2023:

https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD...>

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#613

Post by t0mas88 »

ordinaryradical wrote: post #563

There’s a “live by the sword, die by the sword” reaction that I have to this. I think we expect better of democracies, which is why these kinds of attacks shock us. But it is interesting that we are unsurprised when Lebanon/Hezbollah uses terror tactics but it quickly becomes a news event when Israel responds in kind. Ironic because drone bombings like we did in Afghanistan would probably have a much more terrible co…

I think it's newsworthy because it's such a unique move, almost like it's from a spy novel. Not because 9 people died, that unfortunately happens semi regularly in this conflict.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#614

Post by gosub100 »

rtsil wrote: post #438
nradov wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US Federal government uses the following definition: the term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:22%20section:...

And yet the same Federal government called the attack against USS Cole "terrorism" and its perpetrators "terrorists", and implemented a range of "anti-terrorism" measures in the Navy after that. And it was a military target, and all the victims were military. So really, terrorism is what people say is terrorism.

The soldiers on the Cole were "non-combatant targets" , so the definition is consistent.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#615

Post by balthigor »

burningChrome wrote: post #559
lupusreal wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely does not. The violence will continue with both sides dishing it out and feeling completely justified in doing so because of what was previously done to them.

Or one side accepts a two state solution and stops using its proxies to attack Israel. Unfortunately, there have been eight attempts to give the Palestinians their own state and its been rejected every time. In the 90's, Bill Clinton gave them practically everything they asked for and was still rejected. The only condition they will ever accept is when Israel ceases to exist. Which begs the question - who's really in…

Israel in no way offers "peace". Never have. Nor do any of the other "actors" in this tragedy.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#616

Post by newspaper1 »

exe34 wrote: post #584
freehorse wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were the kids killed also terrorists?

what alternatives would you propose? 1. heznobollas stop firing rockets into Israel? 2. Israel sending smart bombs with much higher collateral damage? 3. an engraved invitation later to members (hehe) of heznobollas to come and be fired upon in an open space to avoid kids? 4. or are you suggesting instead that Jews should just get used to getting fired upon and let their cities be destroyed because you don't care abo…

[flagged]

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#617

Post by dredmorbius »

Qem wrote: post #28

The original pager attack was triggered in the anniversary of World War II hero Folke Bernadotte assassination by Zionists, on September 17. See https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-... I wonder if this was meaningful choice, or just a coincidence.

I strongly suspect the birthday paradox is making an emergence.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a day of the year without some plausible significance.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#618

Post by anigbrowl »

113 wrote: post #526
pdabbadabba wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it should not be considered terrorism to the extent that the attack targeted legitimate military targets during a time of war — broadly speaking, combatants and other parts of the organization that affect its ability to wage war. Terrorism, at least least in my view, is an attack that either intentionally targets civilians or is truly indiscriminate, and is aimed at producing political cha age by causing fear…

> legitimate military targets during a time of war Israel and Lebanon are not at war.

The Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant, describes it as such. I imagine if pressed he'd argue that Israel is attacking Hezbollah and not Lebanon, but given the extreme civil dysfunction in Lebanon it's equally arguable that Hezbollah is the de facto government for a lot of the country.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-exp...

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#619

Post by balthigor »

ericmcer wrote: post #343
Arch485 wrote: post #192

I'm genuinely curious: how is this not considered terrorism on Israel's part? (or is it considered terrorism?) From a tactical standpoint, this is very similar, and the only big difference I see is that this is technologically more advanced/more complex than just planting a bomb or something. If it's not terrorism, what is the differentiating factor(s)? *side note: I'm quite sure other western countries have used tac…

It would be terrorism if they celebrated the civilian casualties and wished there were more. If they could have executed this without a single civilian injury they definitely would have. I guess intent is what makes it terrorism vs war in my mind.

Yes, they've shown such concern for civilian casualties up to the present time. Enormous, crushing, exploding, shooting deadly concern.

Re: Hezbollah hand-held radios detonate across Lebanon, sources say

#620

Post by [deleted] »

rtsil wrote: post #352
stetrain wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of terrorism is controversial and political, so there isn't a hard answer. But I think a general distinction is the targeting of combatants vs civilians. There is a difference between infiltrating military or para-military organizations or operations and intentionally targeting mass casualties of civilians for attention.

I don't know about that. When Al Quaeda attacked the USS Cole, a purely military vessel without a single civilian casualty, the US administration and the entire US military called it an act of terrorrism.

[deleted]
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