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I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

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Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#611

Post by scarface_74 »

from-nibly wrote: post #610
scarface_74 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s be honest here. To say that FAANG hasn’t achieved anything is demonstrably false

When was the last time nextflix did anything interesting other than media production? When was the last time Google created a product they were so proud of they kept it around? When was the last time Facebook built anything they didn't just buy? What was the last thing Amazon did that wasbnt just more vertical integration? Apple is the only company who recently did anything noteworthy and that was just they decided t…

Google doesn’t have the attention span of a crack addled flea, I’ll be the first to admit that.

But Microsoft is doing some interesting things to productize its partnership with OpenAI.

You think all Apple did was “build a CPU?”. You can literally walk around with a 64 bit computer on your wrist that has cellular, WiFi, BT, GPS, a bunch of sensors and it can track workouts.

When I first got into fitness over a decade ago, a humongous much less capable Garmin was the state of the art and you had to wear a chest strap to monitor your heart rate.

If all a company has to do is license ARN tech, why is Apple so far ahead?

I got Amazoned a few months ago (I got a job in three weeks, don’t cry for me). While they are a shit company to work for, were you around before AWS when it took months and tens of thousands of dollars to build our infrastructure and you can now provision infrastructure by writing some yaml? They are also designing thier own processors.

I know first hand the type of technology that AWS has. Even Amazon retail and the logistic it takes to ship at that speed and volume is a modern miracle .

Facebook basically stopped competitors like TikTok and Snaps growth by rapidly competing with Reels.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#612

Post by therealdrag0 »

ep103 wrote: post #337
JackFr wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have posted this before, an argument in defense of stack ranking I had heard from a friend's father who was a long-time manager for a large industrial conglomerate from the 60's through the 80's. Simply put it was that they were far more willing to hire non-standard candidates on gut and hunches, knowing that if it didn't work out, it didn't work out they would be gone in 1-1.5 years and it would not be a ding agai…

Stack Ranking was pioneered by Jack Welch who was operating in an environment where labor was the dominant party in the labor-capital relationship, and he was taking over companies that had had decades of labor growth and power while capital was stagflating nationwide. Introducing stack ranking was a way of trimming excess fat from decades of build up within companies, while reasserting capital in the relationship wi…

Isn’t that just a tuning problem? If the required fire % is low enough relative to hiring rate then people won’t hire to fire.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#613

Post by JackFr »

giantg2 wrote: post #385
psunavy03 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been a Navy officer for 20 years active and reserve, one of the other overlooked flaws of the stack rank is that it's a vehicle for cultivating egos. When the only way up is through many levels of being "1 of X, Early Promote," it's fascinating to watch a bright-eyed humble flight student turn into a condescending jerk of an instructor over the years. Turning the performance review system into "winners" and "l…

I have a friend who is getting out (technically going reserve). It sounds like there are lot of factors impacting retention and most of them are being ignored. Why should the leaders focus on things they are a part of and admit fault if they can simply blame stuff on civilian cultural issues or subordinate "weakness"? I heard some of the cyber warfare units are proposing to bring in people in as high as O5. No way th…

Replying to this 3 days late, so likely this won’t be seen, but I assure you the retention factors are not being ignored. (Well … see my last sentence.). For 2 years in the early nineties I worked in software with an extensive, sophisticated retention model.

Direct pay, benefits, promotion velocity, source of commission were all extensively tracked and modeled. The problem at that point was that you can claim you want a 600 ship navy, but if you don’t have enough surface warfare officers with the right number of years (or dentists or chaplains or JAG lawyers) it’s not going to work.

On the other hand despite our multimillion dollar contract to work on this software, I have no idea if BUPERS actually used it.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#614

Post by giantg2 »

JackFr wrote: post #613
giantg2 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend who is getting out (technically going reserve). It sounds like there are lot of factors impacting retention and most of them are being ignored. Why should the leaders focus on things they are a part of and admit fault if they can simply blame stuff on civilian cultural issues or subordinate "weakness"? I heard some of the cyber warfare units are proposing to bring in people in as high as O5. No way th…

Replying to this 3 days late, so likely this won’t be seen, but I assure you the retention factors are not being ignored. (Well … see my last sentence.). For 2 years in the early nineties I worked in software with an extensive, sophisticated retention model. Direct pay, benefits, promotion velocity, source of commission were all extensively tracked and modeled. The problem at that point was that you can claim you wan…

I'm sure they're tracking the shit out of it. It just seems like they aren't doing anything effective with all that data. At least thats the vibe I get from the guys I know and the articles I've read.

I guess it's not all that much different than what we see in some areas of civilian industry. The lower paying companies know they can't compete on salary so they start implementing what I call "naturally capped" benefits. Stuff like parental leave, fertility help, etc. Stuff that, while excellent to have, either effects a small minority or where people only get to claim it an average of 2.5 times in their life (eg costs the employer less than higher pay). It's something recruiters can use in their pitch to distract from pay.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#615

Post by allenng »

> "Like most companies, we have a performance management process that helps our managers identify who on their teams are performing well and who may need more support. For the small number of employees who are underperforming, we use performance management programs to help them improve, and many employees do just that."

That language is so disrespectful. If I were an Amazon employee reading that, it would feel like being in a toxic, violent relationship and hearing my partner at a party tell others "They're so clumsy; they need my support. They fall down the stairs a lot."

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#616

Post by psunavy03 »

JackFr wrote: post #613
giantg2 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend who is getting out (technically going reserve). It sounds like there are lot of factors impacting retention and most of them are being ignored. Why should the leaders focus on things they are a part of and admit fault if they can simply blame stuff on civilian cultural issues or subordinate "weakness"? I heard some of the cyber warfare units are proposing to bring in people in as high as O5. No way th…

Replying to this 3 days late, so likely this won’t be seen, but I assure you the retention factors are not being ignored. (Well … see my last sentence.). For 2 years in the early nineties I worked in software with an extensive, sophisticated retention model. Direct pay, benefits, promotion velocity, source of commission were all extensively tracked and modeled. The problem at that point was that you can claim you wan…

Part of the problem is that for all everyone (rightly) drags the Bureau, they also have their hands tied by Congress. You can only promote and move around officers as prescribed by Federal law, and until the Defense Officer Personnel Management Act gets reformed, you're ultimately stuck in the land of up-or-out where folks' promotion clocks are ticking the moment they commission. It's an industrial-age model that's strangely like a union seniority list, but without the employment guarantee.

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#617

Post by sershe »

Hmm, most top comments appear to construe this as some sort of anti-labor tactic. As someone who has seen them in action and actually sorta been on one, that seems super alien to me. If anything these plans are way too soft and pro-worker...

1) My own story is that in mid 20ies I was arguing a lot with teammates. I think there's some blame on both sides but most was on mine. There was one person who I think was a not very competent schemer (~confirmed later anonymously by other coworkers) who really set me off with poor technical decisions pushed thru with what I saw as dishonest ways, but overall the team was fine... being a junior developer I was willing to die on way too many hills and I wasn't nice about it either. So they put me on this thing where my coworkers would assess me anonymously, and it came out saying I am great to ok all around but my communication skills are terrible. Then they gave me a bad review and started pushing me towards some online courses and stuff to improve, and saying how it's a risk for my career etc. The job was getting boring and I didn't want to climb uphill from the bad review so after 6 months or so I just left. And I definitely saw the errors in my ways and the negative impact on the team and ~never behaved like that again on my future jobs.

But my point here is... why would they do it if they were anti-me? The most logical way to deal with this situation is to fire me and forget about the whole problem. They actually ended up helping my career in other companies cause if they just fired me, instead of doing the plan song and dance, I'd probably be filled with rightful indignation instead of learning. I don't see how the whole perf plan was some sinister anti-labor move.

Another 2 situations, to contrast.

2) In a big tech co, joined a new team and there was some guy doing almost no work. Like I'd walk into his office to ask a question and he was fiddling with fantasy sports. I am pretty sure he had to be on some plan... but as far as I understand (it was before me) it took at least a year for him to leave/be fired. As opposed to...

3) In a small Russian co, we hired a guy and he was not very productive. Getting ahead, similar to (2), we found when cleaning his desk later he was doing tons of puzzles at work. Anyway, I was a junior team lead with no power. After the tickets assigned to him languished one too many times, a manager asked me what's up. I said I dunno, he seems competent but very slow and I cannot get him to speed up. Manager: "well why not just fire him" me "I can do that?" manager "just say a word" me "hmm, let me talk to him, let's give him another chance" manager "ok you know what, I'm gonna fire him right now, problem solved"

This is how non-FAANG "PIP" plan works :)

Re: I worked in Amazon HR and was disgusted at what I was seeing with PIP plans

#618

Post by fatnoah »

linster wrote: post #348
fatnoah wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One underlying problem with these PIP type programs at FAANG seems to be that they have very high barriers to entry in the interview process, and then act like 30% of the company is underperforming and subject to an annual 6% cull. FWIW, when I was a manager at a FAANG, the numbers were closer to: Underperforming: ~12% Meeting or Exceeding: ~80% Better than exceeding: ~8% As for my own anecdata, for the roughly 100…

As a Canadian, “better than Exceeding” sounds like an American construction. I’d imagine the scale to be: 1. Not Meeting Expectations 2. Meeting Expectations 3. Exceeding expectations

It's worth clarifying that by "Meeting or Exceeding" or "better than Exceeding", I wasn't referring to the actual rating names, but indicating what buckets of ratings. i.e. Better than Exceeding means a rating that was > "Exceeding Expectations"
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