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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#611

Post by natep »

einhverfr wrote: post #581

Reading through the article and the comments here it seems to me that there is a tremendous unresolved tension. There seems to be an idea that we just 'fix the sexism' and that's that. However, stepping back and asking harder questions makes me think the problems are fundamental to highly developed capitalist economies. Before you mod me down, at least read the rest of what I have to say. Everything we do-- what we w…

I think another commenter in this thread had a good answer (it was his understanding of California law). You can politely ask a coworker on a date, but if that person declines, then you drop it.

Re: "Lighten up"

#612

Post by natep »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #391
msbarnett wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps it's just that many guys are so disorganized that it really makes sense for the woman in the group to take notes etc. Assuming that, because she's a woman, she'd be better suited to note-taking is the definition of sexism .

except in this instance it wasn't an assumption , it was a fairly obvious fact.

There is nothing fairly obvious (or, probably, factual) about women being better note-takers than men. Certainly not to the extent that it's better for someone to automatically ask the woman to take notes, rather than say 'who here is good at taking notes?' and if nobody responds, cycling through everyone, and then having the group decide whose notes are best (or something like that).

Re: "Lighten up"

#613

Post by xentronium »

wpietri wrote: post #454
dihard wrote: post #402

How about .. embrace your femininity. The bigger the chip on our shoulder about being a chick in the workplace, the more we're told to "lighten up." Plan the potluck - isn't it fun to plan things? Take the notes - aren't you super organized and taking notes anyway? If given a demeaning comment - sincerely and gracefully refute it the first time, replacing it with a comment about the quality of your work. And, serious…

I don't think you can diminish somebody's complaints and then follow up with "this is not to diminish your complaints".

"I am sorry that you felt offended"

Re: "Lighten up"

#614

Post by marvin »

sangfroid wrote: post #264
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #134

I applaud the author for sharing her feelings. I also note that she does not speak for all women. All we can do is share our own experiences. I've been through many of these discussions: sexism, racism, ageism, and so on. After receiving many a rhetorical punch in the nose, I have a simple rule: I don't do it, I don't approve of it being done, if I am in management I stop it. I also don't let people yank me around by…

I'm one of the women who don't share her feelings. Maybe it's the word sexism that I have a problem with. I'm not a programmer and I don't know the specific environment that she described, but I'm a female motorcyclist and I've worked in lots of kitchens and a couple in molecular biology labs. I know the behavior and I've dealt with it. Men behave in curious ways when there's a low female/male ratio, but in my experi…

As an armchair behavorial therapist, I think this is the only attitude that will end up having a positive benefit (the author also does the right thing by speaking up). There is no use in playing victim; when someone does something to you that you don't want, you have to push back.

For reasons cultural or otherwise, men have a tendency to attempt to subtly dominate people they perceive as weaker. To some people, this seems almost like an instinct, and it's really fascinating how just subtly pushing back or ignoring it seems to stop people from doing it with you.

I don't know a lot about how this manifests itself towards women, but if you are a guy, the best solution is to just push back and perhaps actively study and notice the tricks guys use to achieve social dominance. As a formerly shy guy who was often at the receiving end of this kind of behavior, I think that a lot of these gender problems would even out if all women managed to subtly assert themselves a bit more. It would surprise me greatly if women were exempt from this stereotypical male behavior.

Re: "Lighten up"

#615

Post by hesselink »

einhverfr wrote: post #593
jiggy2011 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; What the hell? How on earth did that happen, I really can't imagine why anyone would think that doing this could possibly have a positive income without having drunk a minimum of 5 beers.

You know here's the thing. I have had female co-workers complain about being asked in interviews at other companies as to whether they'd quit their jobs (rather than taking paid/unpaid leave) if they had kids. I would quietly listen, take notes in my heads as to which companies to avoid working at. There are two things that come to mind. These companies are ones where shit floats so to speak and nothing good will com…

In the Netherlands this is illegal to ask during a job interview (or perhaps in general, as a boss, I'm not sure). What country was this in?

Re: "Lighten up"

#616

Post by ErrantX »

knightenvy wrote: post #483
ErrantX wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal is inappropriate. I don't see how you can't see that someone might be offended by it. Absolutely. One of the first jobs I worked was doing admin & tech support in a small office - full of women. Worst 6 months of my life, and my experience was much the same as this bloggers. Which has really helped me avoid this sort of problematic behaviour now I am working…

Did you at any time ask them to not make those comments?

As a 17 year old lad, in an office full of women, average age ~30?

That's a very difficult sort of scenario to cope with. You're fresh from school where you adapt, rather than complain, to the environment. You have no experience of work, office politics or whether this is actually how it happens in the real world! You have no peers who understand your perspective.

And if you make a major scene? Everyone starts tiptoeing round you for fear of causing offence.

That, more than the comments themselves, is what is upsetting. The knowledge you can't actually get them to treat you as they treat each other.

Re: "Lighten up"

#617

Post by einhverfr »

hesselink wrote: post #615
einhverfr wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know here's the thing. I have had female co-workers complain about being asked in interviews at other companies as to whether they'd quit their jobs (rather than taking paid/unpaid leave) if they had kids. I would quietly listen, take notes in my heads as to which companies to avoid working at. There are two things that come to mind. These companies are ones where shit floats so to speak and nothing good will com…

In the Netherlands this is illegal to ask during a job interview (or perhaps in general, as a boss, I'm not sure). What country was this in?

It was in the US. The company can get in trouble for that here. But even if it were legal, there is no way anyone should want to work for a company where such is asked.

But then I wouldn't work for a company that insisted they wanted to read my personal email either and that's been happening more and more lately :-P

Re: "Lighten up"

#618

Post by einhverfr »

natep wrote: post #611
einhverfr wrote: post #581

Reading through the article and the comments here it seems to me that there is a tremendous unresolved tension. There seems to be an idea that we just 'fix the sexism' and that's that. However, stepping back and asking harder questions makes me think the problems are fundamental to highly developed capitalist economies. Before you mod me down, at least read the rest of what I have to say. Everything we do-- what we w…

I think another commenter in this thread had a good answer (it was his understanding of California law). You can politely ask a coworker on a date, but if that person declines, then you drop it.

And if that co-worker says, "I can't. I am busy tonight"

Does that mean you can't ever ask again?

Or if you ask five times and are politely but not definitively turned down can you ask five more times? 25 more times? Is there no limit?

Now we might say there is an obligation to say something definitive. But then you get into a problem. What if there is a power difference? What if you are a general manager of one business unit asking a floor worker in a different business unit out on a date? Maybe the floor worker is afraid if she hurts your feelings, there will be career consequences? So does that change things?

I don't think sexuality (and that includes romance if we are honest) admits of really simple rules except maybe magic safe words. These things also thrive on mixed messages. Magic safe words ("no" and "stop") protect against the worst problems (sexual assault) but not unwanted attention (how am I supposed to definitively know whether the attention is wanted or not? I can't read minds....), and they don't address the areas where people may want to try to get out of something letting the other person down gently.

Re: "Lighten up"

#619

Post by ErrantX »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #583
mechanical_fish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

> Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. That is only the second thing that came to my mind. The other "danger" is being the only guy to act like that, then looking like a desperate "white knight" to the brogrammer crowd. Which sucks, because these exist and can be terribly creep…

You have to be careful how you do it as well. Because I offered to do a task like that (it wasn't note taking, I think it was making tea) saying something like [names changed] "Chris, I'm not sure why Amy is always asked to make the tea! I'll happily do it".

Which I thought was politely volunteering whilst also publicly raising my bosses problematic behaviour - an educational experience.

I got glowering dagger stares from "Amy", and afterwards she told me she felt humiliated because I'd exposed her as a target of sexism, which made her feel like a failure.

Which is awful that it had come to that (and in retrospect I was an idiot...).

So; use this approach with caution!

Edit: though in my defence "Chris" did improve no end after that; giving"Amy" only her fair share of mundane tasks, etc.

Re: "Lighten up"

#620

Post by asto »

john_flintstone wrote: post #579
tomp wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments). Asking her to take notes (as in, not asking anyone else), though, is a completely different story. However, I believe that some women handle it in a…

>Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments). What about if a man has a nice bulge in his pants? Will you compliment him on that too? Because a reference to a low cut top is a reference to what…

Incorrect. Cleavage is socially acceptable. Having a bit of my penis sticking out of my pants is not.
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