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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#611

Post by mcv »

scotty79 wrote: post #597
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I have another concern. What will stop landlords from increasing the rent by high percentage of basic income? Suppliers always price their goods as high as they can for the specific values of supply, demand and competition, and none of those things will change. The customers will just have more money to pay for the right to live under a roof.

There are two options here: rent control, and the free market.

If enough houses can be built, and basic income is high enough to pay free market prices, then any landlord who asks too high a price, will price themselves out of the market because there will be other cheaper houses. But for this it's vital that the supply of houses is unrestricted.

Of course a landlord might bait and switch with low rent as you move in, and rapidly increasing rent once you get settled. That's simply something that needs to be banned. After you've moved in, landlords should only be allowed to increase rent by either inflation, or the average increase in new rent in the area. But preferably just inflation.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#612

Post by machiaweliczny »

arunkd13 wrote: post #600
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

Employees should not depend on the government for their ability to walk away from a job. They should depend on real assets that help them live more self sufficiently outside of their employment. This should include family, friend and other forms of community ties.

Why not?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#613

Post by millstone »

zpeti wrote: post #548
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

"Will landlords increase rent" is a real economics problem.

Maybe UBI is financed through massive deficit spending, leading to inflation, and rents increase.

Maybe UBI is financed through broad-based tax increases that offset the increased income, leading to nothing in particular.

Maybe UBI is financed through increased taxes on rich hedge fund managers, who all quit their high-paying finance jobs to pursue their low-paying art passions, and rents decrease.

Any of these are plausible. UBI is a political topic, and how it is financed is crucial to understanding its impact.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#614

Post by belorn »

AdamHede wrote: post #539
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I especially buy into your third concern. Where I live, if the introduction of a UBI was followed by a drastic reduction (or complete elimination) of the means-tested system we know today, hunger would potentially become a problem for people blowing their money early in the month (or getting robbed?). This tells me the utopian ideas of replacing the entire complex system with a simple UBI isn't feasible. You'll end u…

I suspect I know what my society will do to people who repeatable demonstrate the inability to take care of themselves and manage basic living aspects of food and rent. They loose the right to do it themselves and get appointed a guardian.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#615

Post by nicoburns »

stiray wrote: post #587
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Even if I like the idea of UBI idealistically, I am worried about potential inflation. Once there is more money in the system (that before the UBI just wasnt there) the prices of basic things might rise and at the end the money you get from UBI will be a "new zero". I am not saying that this will happen but I think this is serious concern.

UBI doesn't actually create money. It redistributes it. I would expect the effect you describe in the short-term, but in the longer term supply of basic goods should increase to match increased demand.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#616

Post by MaxBarraclough »

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Point 1 already applies to existing welfare programmes. It seems to me that if anything, the divide will be reduced by switching to the UBI model, as everyone gets it, not just those who fulfil certain criteria.

Point 2: I'm not convinced that UBI worsens the opportunity for predators, compared to how things stand today. Why would it?

Point 3: I'm not convinced this is likely to be a real problem. Today, different countries have different levels of welfare. I doubt people are less charitable in high-welfare countries (although this is just a guess), and overall, you're certainly better off being down-and-out in a high-welfare country.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#617

Post by scotty79 »

zpeti wrote: post #548
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

I wouldn't be worried about prices of food. Money from UBI should end up in the hands of people that provide poor people with what they need. It's societally useful thing.

Rent however...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#618

Post by 5ersi »

arunkd13 wrote: post #600
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

Employees should not depend on the government for their ability to walk away from a job. They should depend on real assets that help them live more self sufficiently outside of their employment. This should include family, friend and other forms of community ties.

They would not really depend on "the government" as UBI would be codified in law and universally available, so government could not take UBI away from an individual or a group.

Also, we already depend on "the government" to make available (or protect) some pretty important stuff we depend on: rule of law, public safety, healthcare (in most developed countries), etc..

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#619

Post by zpeti »

kashug wrote: post #610
zpeti wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

Many places where I have seen people wanting to introduce UBI, increased (flat percentage) tax is often also suggested. The percentage is then suggested to be set at a level so that: - People at low average income will have more money (the UBI-increase will be higher than the tax-increase) - Average income: You get as much as before. - Higher income: you pay more in taxes than you get from UBI. Basically it ends up b…

Even if average inflation doesn't go up, when you look at specifics it doesn't look very good for the poor, the very people it's supposed to help. Take your example.

- Low income housing costs will probably inflate because all poor people will have an extra $1000 to spend. - Avocado costs probably won't rise, as middle classes will have the same spending power - Bentley and yacht prices might decrease as the rich have less spending power.

So you haven't helped the poor. You've created the usual issue with socialism/communism that in the end all it does is pull everyone down, rather than lift anyone up.

If that's your goal, fine, admit that you hate the rich. But the marketing promises of UBI are not that, they are about helping the poor.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#620

Post by Ma8ee »

onion2k wrote: post #544
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

In the US, just not having to depend on your employer for your and your family’s healthcare would be a big step in that direction.
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