Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#611

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:06 AM UTC

ansible wrote: post #164

jijojv wrote: post #5

This is gonna be interesting as apparently the "Barrier" [1] bug is only in newer AP2 models per latest A/B tests done by cpddan (who did the very first crash reproduction scenario in Chicago [2]) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX0bR_EQ47E Tesla Model X with AP2.5, SW 2018.6.1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zK2Om8Q0IA MS 75, AP1, SW 2018.6.1 1. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/8a0jfh/autopil... . "wor…

I get that the vision system might have been fooled by how the lane widens before the split. What I don't get is why the radar doesn't pick up the barrier itself. It should have been getting a nice, healthy return signal from it, lots of metal at all kinds of angles. What I'm saying is, this is not a stealthy barrier.

> What I don't get is why the radar doesn't pick up the barrier itself

All of these radar systems seem to have problems with stationary objects https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-why-crash-radar/

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#612

Post by greglindahl » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:07 AM UTC

txcwpalpha wrote: post #578

Matheus28 wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Let me put it very clearly for you: it is not acceptable, in any shape or manner, to expect your users to have to "save themselves" from your product killing them every 5 seconds. If your product requires that, it is a bad product. Yes it is. Otherwise you're asking all car manufacturers to stop selling cars. "I have to constantly keep my car between the lines or I'll cause an accident" is an acceptable standard. Th…

>That's how every car on the road works today. The liability is on the user to operate it properly. No, it is not. No other car on the market today actively steers you toward an obstacle. Every non-autopilot car would require the driver (or another human actor, such as another driver) to first put themselves in a dangerous situation before requiring they get themselves out of it. Tesla autopilot, on the other hand, p…

Er, no, there are other cars that steer. All of them are level 2 systems that could steer you wrong.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#613

Post by dayaz36 » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:08 AM UTC

>"We know that he's not the type who would not have his hands on the steering wheel, he's always been (a) really careful driver," said Will.

I don't understand. The victims family is trying to make the case that the driver had his hands on the steering wheel but blame Tesla's AP at the same time? So are they saying AP drove off road against his will while he was trying to steer the car? Because that would be ridiculous.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#614

Post by discordance » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:10 AM UTC

We heavily regulate factors/distractions that may reduce a drivers attention from the road (alcohol, drugs, mobile phones etc).

If Autopilot still requires a user to monitor the road, but results in a reduction in driver attention to the road, then why is it not regulated like mobile phone usage?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#615

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:10 AM UTC

eridius wrote: post #8

I have to wonder why Tesla keeps doubling down on victim-blaming. Is this a case of Elon Musk being insecure about criticism (since he's demonstrated a tendency in the past to react poorly to it)? Or is Tesla trying to actually lower their legal liability? Edit: To clarify, in most of these crashes, it's usually a combination of Tesla's fault and the driver's fault. Which is to say, the driver could have avoided the…

> heck, Tesla probably should have blacklisted that particular GPS location to force the user to take control when approaching that point, if they can't handle the barrier correctly in autopilot

This is something they really ought to do. Also to proactively blacklist places where other drivers commonly disengage Autopilot because there might be something tricky there that it can't handle

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#616

Post by pdonis » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:10 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #325

whistlerbrk wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The driver had previously reported to Tesla 7 to 10 times I understand this is not a popular opinion on news forums anywhere nor do I write this to absolve in my view Tesla of their poor response nor of their poor choice in naming the system 'autopilot' to start. But at what point does corporate or government responsibility end and personal responsibility start? If I knew something didn't work and that something co…

In the US, we have laws that require products to work as advertised. If they don't, generally strict product liability applies to the manufacturer, seller, and all middleman (in this case, they're all Tesla), regardless of whether the customer-victim was misusing the product. In this case, there is no evidence that the driver was misusing the car. But there is a carload of evidence that Autopilot failed. At this poin…

> In the US, we have laws that require products to work as advertised.

And if they don't, what's the first thing you, as the customer, do? You stop using the product. If autopilot isn't working the way you think it should, you stop using autopilot. This driver did not do that. What kind of sense does that make?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#617

Post by mlamat » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:11 AM UTC

xvf22 wrote: post #95

exotree wrote: post #10

This is a very upsetting response. Yes, the driver could have paid more attention, and yes, he shouldn't have activated Autopilot in an area where he knew Tesla's autopilot was not working correctly. However, Tesla calling it "Autopilot" should be no longer allowed. It's clear that it is most certainly not that, and customers are not treating this feature in a careful and cautious fashion, and I do believe that's due…

It'll work 99% of the time and lull you into a false sense of security. The other 1% of the time you better be ready to take over with little notice or there's a chance you'll end up dead. And with automatic updates a section of road that has been fine for a year suddenly tries to kill you... Blaming the victim certainly doesn't sit well with me.

I also always say this to others. It doesn't matter if it works 99.9% of the time. It took them maybe 10 years to get the software to this point. But it will take 50 years to solve the rest. And nobody is going to use the systems before that.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#618

Post by haeffin » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:11 AM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #588

lsc wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But today we can't even do a basic 'dont run into shit' on a perfectly clear day. so,uh, the emergency braking systems on other cars...so called 'AEB' systems, or what Honda calls Collision Mitigation Braking System... would that have caught this? I would expect this sort of thing "big object in road" to trigger the AEB system... even if it didn't stop me, I'd expect it to trigger before the collision and slow me do…

Maybe, who knows. The difference is that Honda and others aren't advertising an auto driving but a warning system. If i'm designing such a system, the obvious answer is 'if I don't know my exact next x feet, stop the car.' And I mean exact. A confused autodrive system should stop in the highway, not smash a barrier.

A car that stops for no reason is a safety risk for the cars that follow it, so that's not a good option either.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#619

Post by pdonis » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:12 AM UTC

brianpan wrote: post #566

whistlerbrk wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The driver had previously reported to Tesla 7 to 10 times I understand this is not a popular opinion on news forums anywhere nor do I write this to absolve in my view Tesla of their poor response nor of their poor choice in naming the system 'autopilot' to start. But at what point does corporate or government responsibility end and personal responsibility start? If I knew something didn't work and that something co…

I realize we're talking about Teslas, but still, how many people can just stop using their car when they need to go to work or pick up kids? The airbag recall affected millions and millions of cars. How many of those people were able to not drive their car until the problem was resolved?

> how many people can just stop using their car

You wouldn't have to stop using the car. Just stop using autopilot.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#620

Post by ummonk » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 5:13 AM UTC

lsc wrote: post #586

axaxs wrote: post #572

This is so frustrating to me. 50 years ago we had the ability to fly to the moon. A played out trope, sure. But today we can't even do a basic 'dont run into shit' on a perfectly clear day. Physics in this way is and has been a solved problem for decades. The fact that people are dying from hitting stationary objects should be criminal. At lightest, they should bar these companies from even participating.

>But today we can't even do a basic 'dont run into shit' on a perfectly clear day. so,uh, the emergency braking systems on other cars...so called 'AEB' systems, or what Honda calls Collision Mitigation Braking System... would that have caught this? I would expect this sort of thing "big object in road" to trigger the AEB system... even if it didn't stop me, I'd expect it to trigger before the collision and slow me do…

The AEB wouldn't trigger on something like this. And it shouldn't, since an actual driver would be turning to follow the road, so there is no reason to do any emergency braking (or even to warn them).