Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA • Hacker News Board

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#611

Post by halflings » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 2:46 AM UTC

zeth___ wrote: post #154

halflings wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is key. I strongly believe that legalization is the only answer to the problem. Why do we have to "believe"? There are many examples to learn from, to see what works and what doesn't. For example, this study [0]. "This paper suggests it’s the latter. Using trafficking data from 150 countries, the authors find that "countries where prostitution is legal experience a larger reported incidence of human traffickin…

Sweden has more rapes per capita than any country outside of sub-saharan Africa. Whatever system they have they can keep.

This is a well known trope (especially in less palatable corners of the internet). A quick read of the "Rape in Sweden" [0] wikipedia page explains why these numbers are very high. Each separate relation is counted as a different rape, the definition of rape is broader, and the reporting rate is higher.

For people that lived in Sweden, this claim (that Sweden has some incredible rape problem) is surprising to say the least.

(with that being said, there has been an increase in sexual violence lately, probably correlated with immigration from regions where the rate is higher, but from what I could gather it was not a dramatic increase)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#612

Post by snuxoll » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 4:45 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #501

manofmanysmiles wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about this peripherally for a while, especially the bigger picture when some law is passed, and it seems exceptionally out of touch with the reality, and does more harm than good. A depressing thought: What if we apply something akin to Occam's Razor? What if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of society? To me it feels unlikely it is intentional in most cases, o…

What if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of society? There can be malice, but I think this is mostly akin to the idea of "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" only substitute ignorance for stupidity . When I was homeless, I certainly ran into malicious behavior rooted in classism, mostly on a particular forum (not HN). But mostly I ran in…

> There can be malice, but I think this is mostly akin to the idea of "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" only substitute ignorance for stupidity.

The history of the "war on drugs" is fraught with racism, there's no need to assume malice - it's quite well documented.

Crusades against other vices like prostitution and alcohol have often had religious or other motivations of "purity" behind them, the same thing with nicotine. One could argue excessive alcohol consumption and smoking are of course genuine public health issues as well, but while the anti-smoking movement started with mostly good intentions you can see the "dirty smoker" sentiment that's developed when raising taxes on tobacco products has been a decent way to generate tax revenue in a way that mostly targets the poor without raising suspicion or ire from the public.

The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions, but often those good intentions are extremely thin veils over supposed moral superiority.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#613

Post by jurassic » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 5:32 AM UTC

This makes me sad. I never actually responded to any of the personals on Craigslist, but looking through them back in 2008 and seeing what I felt attraction to helped me understand and come to terms with the fact that I really am bisexual. Fast forward ten years and next month I'm marrying my same-sex partner. Not saying I wouldn't have figured that out without Craigslist personals, but I do feel strongly that there's value in having a space for people to broadcast their desire without moderation.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#614

Post by njarboe » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 5:47 AM UTC

carver wrote: post #566

manofmanysmiles wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about this peripherally for a while, especially the bigger picture when some law is passed, and it seems exceptionally out of touch with the reality, and does more harm than good. A depressing thought: What if we apply something akin to Occam's Razor? What if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of society? To me it feels unlikely it is intentional in most cases, o…

It's even worse than that: politicians created over-reaching laws and enforcement, to demographically target political opponents and take away their right to vote. > "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to…

This is a very powerful quote. It is too bad that it was first published[1] 12 years after Erlichman told it to Baum and after Erlichman died. It sure fits with what I think Nixon was capable of, but I wonder how embellished the actual quote given by Baum so many years after Ehrlichman said it. Would have been nice to have Ehrlichman confirm it but he was already dead when this quote was published.

[1]https://harpers.org/archive/2016/04/legalize-it-all/

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#615

Post by AFNobody » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 5:52 AM UTC

abritinthebay wrote: post #574

AFNobody wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It increases the sexual abuse of marginalized women statistically. Legal brothels have much lower rates of abuse.

Given the law was in response to abuse of marginalized women sexually in these services (well written or not) that’s not a very good argument in this case. Both are underground: this is about removing east of access to the service not legal vs illegal services

It was not passed for that reason.

https://www.thecut.com/2018/03/sesta-anti-sex-trafficking-bi...

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#616

Post by AFNobody » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 5:58 AM UTC

troupe wrote: post #596

AFNobody wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It increases the sexual abuse of marginalized women statistically. Legal brothels have much lower rates of abuse.

> Legal brothels have much lower rates of abuse. Because there is less overall abuse? If you make something legal you will increase the number of people who are concerned about the legality of their actions which will reduce the overall percentage of people participating who are NOT concerned about the legality of their actions. I would expect the percentage of abuse to go down in that situation, but it doesn't mean…

https://www.thecut.com/2018/03/sesta-anti-sex-trafficking-bi...

Go read that.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#617

Post by racer-v » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 6:14 AM UTC

Declanomous wrote: post #567

creep wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the upperclass mostly "controls" lawmaking decisions for their own interest, and are almost entirely unaware of the condition/state of mind/customs of the lower classes. They don't understand how it works, and because they don't understand they feel superior, so they make decisions on behalf of the lower classes with the intent of nobly showing the masses the way while serving their own interests. There's als…

There's an interesting theory, which I can't recall the name of, that says that poor people understand the rich because they can empathize with them, but it takes too much energy for the rich to empathize with the poor because there are so many of them and their burden is overwhelming. So the rich don't understand the poor but the poor understand the rich, which explains why we have the laws we have.

It seems more likely that the lower classes can easily empathize with the rich because they want to be the rich, while the converse is not normally true.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#618

Post by racer-v » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 6:22 AM UTC

manofmanysmiles wrote: post #394

edraferi wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about this a lot this morning. I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved. It's trafficked kids with broken immigration status who are more scared of the cops than their captors. It's drug addicts who OD on tainted d…

I've been thinking about this peripherally for a while, especially the bigger picture when some law is passed, and it seems exceptionally out of touch with the reality, and does more harm than good. A depressing thought: What if we apply something akin to Occam's Razor? What if the lawmakers want to hurt the people struggling at at the lower rungs of society? To me it feels unlikely it is intentional in most cases, o…

> what if on some level, there is a motivation to hurt these people who they feel are inferior?

I think this insightful, and I suggest there is a motivation to hurt other people in general - but it's only feasible to do so when those others are relatively powerless. Hence the targeting of the defenseless.

This is not a popular opinion in the modern age, as it's become dogma that "all men are brothers". However from an evolutionary perspective, a tendency to get pleasure from causing pain (sadism) is a vital component in the kind of psychological makeup which thrives in a Darwinian world.

We shouldn't justify this tendency but recognize it and learn to work around it (perhaps by playing contact sports, for example).

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#619

Post by garfieldnate » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

edraferi wrote: post #368

anigbrowl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, like the trade is going to suddenly end. All they've achieved is 'out of sight, out of mind.' I'm quite annoyed about this, both because it affects numerous friends of mine who are sex workers and are now scrambling to find alternatives to working on the street, where they're far less safe, and on a more pedestrian level because I met my wife on a Craigslist date years ago. Life is too short to make excuses fo…

I've been thinking about this a lot this morning. I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved. It's trafficked kids with broken immigration status who are more scared of the cops than their captors. It's drug addicts who OD on tainted d…

I've long believed that culture is the most powerful law enforcement. It's quite common in the US to believe that people deserve what they get when take drugs, or that you are a bad person for taking drugs or the sex trade.

Your comment about putting everything in the open reminds me of _Peter Freuchen's Famous Book of the Eskimos_. One of the greatest sins among the Eskimos was to hide your behavior. His example is a man who would masturbate with seal corpses when he went hunting; people laughed and said he was ridiculous because he had a pretty wife yet somehow preferred seals. But he wasn't considered bad for it; it only would have been bad if he had hidden it. He was teased a little and that was the end of it.

A more serious episode involves a murder. The murdered man was quite disliked by everyone, but the witnesses and the murderer participate in a long conversation/declaration that the murderer had done wrongly, that he was terrible, that he should have died instead, etc. And when that conversation was over, they all went to dinner and spoke no more of it. A clandestine murder with no confession, however, would have been atrocious.

Not sure this directly contributes to the convo, but it was a good read :)

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#620

Post by oplav » Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 11:56 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #544

edraferi wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about this a lot this morning. I think almost every vice would be less damaging to society if it was in the open. Polite society doesn't want to see sex work or drugs, but they still exist. Hiding them makes things much worse for the people directly involved. It's trafficked kids with broken immigration status who are more scared of the cops than their captors. It's drug addicts who OD on tainted d…

Bring it all into the open. Have the government certify providers directly. Crack down on unauthorized middlemen. Tax it. I don't agree. Decriminalization is a better approach than legalization and regulation. If it is decriminalized, then victims don't have to live in fear of the police. Legalization and regulation often makes things worse, not better.

If it is decriminalized, then victims don't have to live in fear of the police.

Isn't this the same as with legalization?

Legalization and regulation often makes things worse, not better.

Do you have examples of this?