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EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

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Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#601

Post by rgblambda »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #599
rgblambda wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does modern English read like historical English? If you can read and understand text from the 18th century, then yes. We're not talking about Middle English or Old English. >but the fact that there are "native speakers" involved in the debate I should have put native speakers in quotes as well. What counts as a native Ulster Scots speaker is someone who speaks English with an NI accent with some localisms thrown in…

> If you can read and understand text from the 18th century, then yes. Yes, and I can read and understand historical Ulster Scots as well, but you were making a different point about codification/drift, no? The English I would find in those historical writings is quite different from what is being taught in schools today or recommended in style guides. > What counts as a native Ulster Scots speaker is someone who spe…

My point regarding the "official" language is that it bears little resemblance to the dialect that largely died out in the 20th century. i.e. it's a fabrication. Contrast that with the differing dialects of Irish where the grammar is identical with some variations in pronunciation.

I'm not entertaining the notion that I have to pretend you're a native speaker when you've made clear you're only identifying as such for the purpose of making an argument.

>There is no "protestant community" in Northern Ireland.

Anyone who applies for a job in NI fills out a form where they are asked if they are a member of "the Protestant community", "the Roman Catholic community" or neither. You're denying the factual existence of the different communities in NI for the purpose of winning an argument on the internet.

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#602

Post by saturnite »

UebVar wrote: post #229
arbuge wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maltese, interestingly, is the only Afro-Asiatic derived language. It's Semitic, to be precise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages

Arabic, even. An outlier, as it is AFAIK the only arabic dialect that is not written with the arabic alphabet. Also it's far removed from other arabic dialects.

I looked it up. It was surprising to see that it's written left to right in basically the Latin alphabet with a few changes.

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#603

Post by AlecSchueler »

rgblambda wrote: post #601
AlecSchueler wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can read and understand text from the 18th century, then yes. Yes, and I can read and understand historical Ulster Scots as well, but you were making a different point about codification/drift, no? The English I would find in those historical writings is quite different from what is being taught in schools today or recommended in style guides. > What counts as a native Ulster Scots speaker is someone who spe…

My point regarding the "official" language is that it bears little resemblance to the dialect that largely died out in the 20th century. i.e. it's a fabrication. Contrast that with the differing dialects of Irish where the grammar is identical with some variations in pronunciation. I'm not entertaining the notion that I have to pretend you're a native speaker when you've made clear you're only identifying as such for…

> My point regarding the "official" language is that it bears little resemblance to the dialect that largely died out in the 20th century i.e. it's a fabrication

Could you outline the key ways in which it differs? And say why that suggests the language was later "fabricated?"

> I'm not entertaining the notion that I have to pretend you're a native speaker when you've made clear you're only identifying as such for the purpose of making an argument.

If you won't entertain the notion that I'm a native speaker could you amend your definition of "native speaker" or explain what differentiates me from the native speakers whose complaints you referenced previously? And could you let us know where we can read about their complaints?

> Anyone who applies for a job in NI fills out a form where they are asked if they are a member of "the Protestant community", "the Roman Catholic community" or neither.

Of course you understand that the "protestant community" is not an homogenous group with shared views and opinions on these things. The reason that question is on the forms is because of historical discrimination against Catholics and the need to quantify heritage issues in order to avoid such discrimination forwards.

One protestant might feel embarrassment, another might feel pride, and another might not care at all. Suggesting there's a unified view from "the protestant community' is disingenuous.

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#604

Post by rgblambda »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #603
rgblambda wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point regarding the "official" language is that it bears little resemblance to the dialect that largely died out in the 20th century. i.e. it's a fabrication. Contrast that with the differing dialects of Irish where the grammar is identical with some variations in pronunciation. I'm not entertaining the notion that I have to pretend you're a native speaker when you've made clear you're only identifying as such for…

> My point regarding the "official" language is that it bears little resemblance to the dialect that largely died out in the 20th century i.e. it's a fabrication Could you outline the key ways in which it differs? And say why that suggests the language was later "fabricated?" > I'm not entertaining the notion that I have to pretend you're a native speaker when you've made clear you're only identifying as such for the…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/learning/history/state...

This will answer all your queries.

>Suggesting there's a unified view from "the protestant community' is disingenuous.

I've yet to meet a member of that community in person (now you've decided they exist) who has any interest in Ulster Scots as a language, (even people who are quite opinionated and argumentative on other NI topics). This is evident in the lack of Ulster Scots language classes. There are more Irish classes running in East Belfast than for Ulster Scots.

Outside of the political class (who are only interested in it as a means to stifle support for the Irish language) Ulster Scots advocates are exclusively found online.

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#605

Post by findyoucef »

arbuge wrote: post #592
findyoucef wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all far removed from the North African dialects of arabic which is the dialect that it's derived from. Tunisians and Algerians can understand Maltese quite well.

> Tunisians and Algerians can understand Maltese quite well. Not in my experience. Not at all actually. My experience with Arabic speakers is that they think they're understanding when you speak Maltese, because it sounds kind of familiar, but in actual fact they're not understanding much at all. Which is not surprising after a thousand years of divergence.

Well well these Arabic speakers Tunisians and Algerians?

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#606

Post by findyoucef »

arbuge wrote: post #593
findyoucef wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Algerian, I can confirm that Maltese is surprisingly easy to understand. I was genuinely shocked the first time I heard it because the similarities are so obvious. Many Arabic dialects are also written using the Latin alphabet, especially online and on social media, so the different writing systems aren’t really a barrier at all.

Calling BS on this one. I'll let ChatGPT handle it... it says it better than I could: can arabic people understand maltese? That’s a really interesting question — and the answer is: *partially, but not easily.* Here’s why: ### Linguistic roots Maltese is a *Semitic language*, and its *core grammar and basic vocabulary* come from *Arabic*, specifically from *Siculo-Arabic*, the dialect of Arabic spoken in Sicily and M…

I will let my own experience tell the story instead of chatgpt.

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#607

Post by mensetmanusman »

isodev wrote: post #292
srameshc wrote: post #7

I was thinking the same, why are so many superior models coming from only countries like US and China. And why are European countries not in the list other than France with Mistral. Why are so few companies in India, Japan, South Korea even close to a promising new model like what Chinese companies did ?

Because the value of these models is (actually) yet to be proven. Why saturate the market with something that we already have at least one of and others are selling as a service? No model provider (including the "big ones" like OpenAI) has been able to produce a viable business case. They're all literally running on government deals and investor money.

It’s been proven that it is valuable to be able to convert English into executable code that does what is wanted.

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#608

Post by mensetmanusman »

troupo wrote: post #456
mensetmanusman wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False, research works on grasping at the possible but not quite knowing how. Slop has stumbled into accidental success on a number of occasions.

> research works on grasping at the possible but not quite knowing how If these are public money, you want to reduce the blind grasping > Slop has stumbled into accidental success on a number of occasions. So, show me these occasions where AI slop led to "transformative potential by driving adoption of AI across strategic and public sectors including healthcare, pharmaceuticals, energy, mobility, manufacturing, const…

Knowing the outcome of research before attempting it isn’t research, it’s development.

Being honest with taxpayers about what research is is probably possible unless the population is low IQ.

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#609

Post by AlecSchueler »

rgblambda wrote: post #604
AlecSchueler wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point regarding the "official" language is that it bears little resemblance to the dialect that largely died out in the 20th century i.e. it's a fabrication Could you outline the key ways in which it differs? And say why that suggests the language was later "fabricated?" > I'm not entertaining the notion that I have to pretend you're a native speaker when you've made clear you're only identifying as such for the…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/learning/history/state... This will answer all your queries. >Suggesting there's a unified view from "the protestant community' is disingenuous. I've yet to meet a member of that community in person (now you've decided they exist) who has any interest in Ulster Scots as a language, (even people who are quite opinionated and argumentative on other NI topics). This is evident in th…

> This will answer all your queries.

It doesn't. It's just an opinion piece about the use of neologisms in certain publications. It makes the same claim about incomprehensibility for native speakers but also fails to reference the voices of any actual native speakers. Who are they? Do they really complain about this as you said?

> I've yet to meet a member of that community in person who has any interest in Ulster Scots as a language

Well? I have met them. I've met lecturers at Queens such as Ivan Herbison studying the thing, I've met artists like Willie Drennan touring the country sharing contemporary poetry and song in Ulster Scots. I've met people in the countryside of Antrim not only with an interest in it, but speaking it day to day. Just because you haven't personally encountered these people doesn't mean they don't exist.

> now you've decided they exist

This is quite unfriendly. I made a clear distinction between what you were claiming--a single protestant community who are collectively embarrassed by Ulster Scots--and the collection of people with a shared background who identify as protestants for the sake of anti-discrimination laws, but who are otherwise diverse in their beliefs and opinions. To say that in so doing I somehow conceded your original claim is again disingenuous. It also seems absurd in relation to your broader point to now insist that just because some politician decided a form should say "protestant community" that that is necessarily reflective of an on-the-ground reality.

> There are more Irish classes running in East Belfast than for Ulster Scots.

By your definition of native speakers everyone in East Belfast is already brought up speaking Ulster Scots at home, so of course there's more interest in other languages. There are more people from East Belfast attending Irish classes than English classes too, it doesn't mean no one is interested in English.

Re: EuroLLM: LLM made in Europe built to support all 24 official EU languages

#610

Post by rgblambda »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #609
rgblambda wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/learning/history/state... This will answer all your queries. >Suggesting there's a unified view from "the protestant community' is disingenuous. I've yet to meet a member of that community in person (now you've decided they exist) who has any interest in Ulster Scots as a language, (even people who are quite opinionated and argumentative on other NI topics). This is evident in th…

> This will answer all your queries. It doesn't. It's just an opinion piece about the use of neologisms in certain publications. It makes the same claim about incomprehensibility for native speakers but also fails to reference the voices of any actual native speakers. Who are they? Do they really complain about this as you said? > I've yet to meet a member of that community in person who has any interest in Ulster Sc…

You asked for opinions and you got opinions. I can't disprove your claims about who you've met and what language they were speaking. I can only say it's at odds with my experience.

>By your definition of native speakers everyone in East Belfast is already brought up speaking Ulster Scots at home

But reading and writing in it? And would they agree they're speaking Ulster Scots or would they say it's English?

>There are more people from East Belfast attending Irish classes than English classes too

Did you not learn English in school? I find it hard to believe English isn't taught in East Belfast schools. And that's not counting English as a second language classes for immigrant communities. What language is the signage in in East Belfast?

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