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“Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

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Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#601
post #540
post #522

I wish that Twitter - or some other social network - would experiment with the type of moderation seen on HN. Some would maybe call it heavy handed but I think of HN as a place that is mercifully relatively free of trolling, outrage culture, political bullshit and other toxic behaviors. In my experience there's no place like HN on the internet, and that's due I suspect to having a highly professional moderator (@dang…

HN still suffers from what I call the "Everyone is an idiot but me" mentality. There is also a bit of outrage from time to time about small things. But the fact that it is the worst that happens here is saying a lot though. HN really is very well moderated and the guidelines are concise, reasonable, and simple to understand. It really helps that HN has a narrow set of topics. No idea how this could possibly scale to…

>"Everyone is an idiot but me" mentality

That is not unique to HN. That is all social media.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#602
post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because those aren't even remotely similar things. It wouldn't be a "hate crime" to call a Catholic a Protestant, or a Gay person a Straight person or a Black person a white person. It would be a hateful to deny them rights or to call for abuse. In this instance the "hate crime" is merely saying someone's biological sex is x, even if they say they are y. However, If I called a non-trans woman a man or a non-trans…

I think the debate on misgendering being a "hate crime" is a bit pedantic. A lot of normal things between friends, lovers, acquaintances, colleagues pr strangers can be considered criminal or normal depending on circumstances / context. The idea that you're going to be jailed by accidentally misgendering your buddy is just moral panic at the expense of trans folks. If I walked around the office calling my male co-wor…

When you say something like this to a friend, you're giving them power and control over you because if they decide to make you a criminal, they can.

That's not what trust is supposed to mean between friends.

If someone stabs a friend they can't claim that since it's between friends, it's ok.

This is how you know laws such as what you're discussing are ridiculous.

Does it make you an asshole to crack a rude gay joke in front of someone who is gay? yes. Should it be criminal? absolutely not.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#603
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is Canada on the verge of civil war? So, the difference between the two countries is that this viewpoint in Canada is a fringe one, while in the United States, it enjoys popular support among mainstream politicians and media. Oh, they don't directly endorse violence, but they are very happy to call for someone to 'remove this turbulent priest'. That's the difference between fringe lunacy (present in every country,…

Also a reminder - a left-wing nut shot Scalise during a baseball game. Rand Paul was attacked at his home and had his ribs broken. There was an assassination plot against a conservative-leaning Supreme Court justice. The right does not own the monopoly on violent nutjobs among their ranks. Sadly, they exist everywhere, left, right, and center.

In Rand Paul's case it was just a conflict with his neighbour over leaves in the garden or some such incredibly stupid thing like that, right? I don't believe there was a political motive behind that one.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#604
post #522

I wish that Twitter - or some other social network - would experiment with the type of moderation seen on HN. Some would maybe call it heavy handed but I think of HN as a place that is mercifully relatively free of trolling, outrage culture, political bullshit and other toxic behaviors. In my experience there's no place like HN on the internet, and that's due I suspect to having a highly professional moderator (@dang…

I honestly don’t understand the consistent (self) praise for HN comments. Perhaps the mods make valiant efforts to enforce some vague standard of decorum and it would be worse without that thankless work, but any topic that doesn’t lend itself to software industry anecdote sharing is filled with the same vacuous, uninformed polemic as any other generalist social media site, just with a thin veneer of politeness. And…

You have a much different experience on general social media sites than I do. When I open a twitter thread that isn't sandboxed to nerds geeking out with other nerds about cool stuff, half the stuff I see is flamebait or just nasty adhominem vitriol. But, I think it just goes with the territory, if HN was a place for politics/culture wars/etc. it would probably devolve into the filth despite Dang's best efforts. This and stackoverflow are the only sites that I actively want to read comments, instead of mindlessly scrolling down to them and regretting it.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#605
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter isn't a government entity. If anything, simply removing algorithms and stop suggesting content and let people set rules on how much or what type of content by other users is seen is sufficient.

content moderation in any form is policy, is political, is governance. they're talking about setting up a council with diverse viewpoints, that's an attempt at representative government! they already support blocklists and most of the content it suggests is directly related to your activity on the site. it seems they have a small random factor, but it's pretty easy to ignore or block if you don't like it. but honestl…

No there isn't. Twitter isn't the bastion of communication for human connection. It is a place for people seeking attention to spew their PR snippets. For God's sake, please go out into nature and then take a walk somewhere with people before suggesting that Twitter is the place for humans to communicate and organize.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#606
post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a perspective thing. But I just don't see that. I mean, sure, there are Internet Yahoos everywhere who run around calling people Nazis and whatnot. But do you have any examples of major abuse directed by big accounts with big audiences (i.e. the ones that attract the censors' attention) that should have been banned but weren't? The Bee went way out on a limb with that article as I see it. And they got banned.…

I don't actually use Twitter, so I don't really have specific examples of huge Twitter accounts tweeting nasty things? I am just thinking of what's clearly considered normal among my peers. For example, here is a random thing I find if I Google "mean tweets about donald trump": https://twitter.com/dadsaysjokes/status/1062806755229474824?... > What's the difference between Donald Trump and a worm? One of them is a sli…

> I am just thinking of what's clearly considered normal among my peers.

OK, so that gets directly to my point. You have a community. It has norms. You presumably police it according to those norms. Some things are OK, some aren't. I'm not going to judge it, because it's not my community (though I dearly hope you aren't trafficking in the kind of hate the Bee did).

But Twitter is a community too, and it has different rules.

As for the joke you found. Y'know what, I think that's pretty borderline. I can see some forums (here, for example) finding that banworthy, and I wouldn't be shocked if Twitter did too. But it's also a rando comment with sub-1000 engagement numbers. If this was horrifically offensive to Trump supports, not many of them seem to have been complaining about it. The Babylon Bee had many millions of followers and this was a very controversial article.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#607
post #522

I wish that Twitter - or some other social network - would experiment with the type of moderation seen on HN. Some would maybe call it heavy handed but I think of HN as a place that is mercifully relatively free of trolling, outrage culture, political bullshit and other toxic behaviors. In my experience there's no place like HN on the internet, and that's due I suspect to having a highly professional moderator (@dang…

HN is a small and uniform community, twitter is basically a group messenger -- I don't think it'd be reasonable to try to apply the same standards.

(dang does do a great job, and it's really remarkable how well HN has maintained its quality over many years. That it is not a commericial enterprise also helps a lot, I think.)

dang, if you're reading this, what's your motivation? It seems like a lot of work and somewhat thankless.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#608
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The piece satirized the confusion between sex and gender. It has only been very, very recently that we have gone from "gender is a social construct" to "sex is a social construct." It's still a highly debated topic and well within the public sphere of debate. Also, this person was a public official and was in the news from general news outlets (named Woman of the Year) which puts them well within the public realm of…

> It has only been very, very recently that we have gone from "gender is a social construct" to "sex is a social construct." What? Since when is sex a social construct?

I think they’re being glib, but sex absolutely is a social construct. What exactly constitutes THE properties of the female and male sex is defined by society more than biology. For example, people who have androgen insensitivity syndrome develop perfectly normal looking “female” bodies, but their genetic sex is “male”. People generally still consider those individuals to be “female”. If you want to get down to it, all words are socially defined. They usually attempt to describe or capture reoccurring details about the observable world, but nature (especially biology) has too much variety and weird exceptions for any simple linguistic model to perfectly match the physical world. That’s doubly true for a linguistic model used in everyday life as opposed to scientific discourse.

That’s not to say that “sex isn’t real” or some absurd position like that. There is a real phenomenon in biology where genetic and phenotypical variance tends to follow a limited set of patterns. Biologists call those patterns “sex”. But, the idea that “sex” as we use it in normal day-to-day life is a rigidly defined system based on hard biological facts is laughably false. When was the last time you insisted on seeing someone’s genetic karyotype test results? When was the last time you asked someone to drop their pants so you could examine their genitalia and determine their sex?

The phrase “sex is a social construct” is technically true in the same way that “chairs are a social construct” is true. The word describes a fuzzy subset of the set of all things, and what we consider in or out of the set is largely based on what we think should belong to it, and that is absolutely influenced by societal expectations. Where do chairs end and tables begin? Where does the female sex end?

Once you get to that point, the phrase almost has no meaning. If all word definitions are social constructs, then that’s table stakes and it doesn’t make sense to call out a specific word as having that property. Surely the phrase “is a social construct” must mean something more than “is like any other word”. Indeed, the meaning of that phrase is larger than what it literally says. There is a socially defined meaning that is attached to it. That phrase implies the word in question “is arbitrarily defined (more than most words)” and “is up for interpretation (more than most words)”.

If you agree with me this far, then the right way to frame this discussion is “should we pin ‘sex’ as it is used in every day life to specific physical properties or should we allow it to be more porous?”. This isn’t as straightforward as it might seem. If we pin it, for example, to genetic karyotype, then we need to stop using it in contexts where the genetics of the person are unknown and must admit the existence of several additional sexes (e.g. X, XXY) AND recognize it’s no longer useful for describing the phenomenon of what a person looks like or how their body works. If we make it porous, then we will endlessly debate about whether boundary cases fall into one bucket or the other and possibly hurt some feelings along the way.

The fun thing is that we get to pick what words mean, and we get to pick what we do with “sex”. Language is, after all, a social construct.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#609
post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you think is the fundamental joke the article is making? That a man was voted “Woman of the Year”. By any non-tautological definition of “woman” and “man”, that’s objectively true. Are we not allowed to point out obvious truths when people claim the opposite?

Generally we consider jokes to be cruel when they mock an affliction that someone didn’t choose to have. You can just about get away with making such jokes about the abstract idea of an affliction, but when you name someone directly it crosses a line. Whether you think this particular example was cruel depends ultimately on whether you think it is targeting the individual’s gender dysphoria (the thing they didn’t cho…

I take your point, but would suggest the joke is more pointedly aimed at society generally, and the magazine specifically.

What makes the joke funny and culturally relevant — as opposed trivial cruelty — is that it represents a simple, forbidden truth for which one will be subject to severe public censure and deplatforming.

Comedy is a final bulwark against uncritical thinking, and can be used to deflate ludicrous ideas that are otherwise culturally unassailable.

Re: “Twitter will be forming a content moderation council with diverse viewpoints”

#610
post #522

I wish that Twitter - or some other social network - would experiment with the type of moderation seen on HN. Some would maybe call it heavy handed but I think of HN as a place that is mercifully relatively free of trolling, outrage culture, political bullshit and other toxic behaviors. In my experience there's no place like HN on the internet, and that's due I suspect to having a highly professional moderator (@dang…

I honestly don’t understand the consistent (self) praise for HN comments. Perhaps the mods make valiant efforts to enforce some vague standard of decorum and it would be worse without that thankless work, but any topic that doesn’t lend itself to software industry anecdote sharing is filled with the same vacuous, uninformed polemic as any other generalist social media site, just with a thin veneer of politeness. And…

Too true -- as topics get less technological and more political, comments here become increasingly naive without any corresponding reduction in certainty.
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