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Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

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Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#601

Post by twayt »

matt89 wrote: post #596
twayt wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you learn from your coworkers? It isn't like you are pair programming constantly with senior devs all the time. I've learnt way more reading papers and documentation than being in the same physical space as more senior colleagues. People sometimes bring this point up re: onboarding but I don't quite understand what people learn that they can't do otherwise remotely.

Different people absorb knowledge in different ways. Just because you learned the most by reading articles doesn't mean that is true for everyone. I believe there is value in newcomers/junior devs begin in close proximity with their more experienced coworkers because this greatly improves the chance to talk about important work-related topics. Many times in my live I have started a casual conversation with someone at…

> Different people absorb knowledge in different ways. Just because you learned the most by reading articles doesn't mean that is true for everyone.

...and that's precisely the reason I asked the question

> Many times in my live I have started a casual conversation with someone at work and this lead to discussion about current work-related software topics and I was able to share some opinions with someone.

This sounds like general information sharing amongst coworkers. The way you phrased the comment made it seem like there was something specific you were referring to pertaining to newcomers/junior devs.

I agree with your point that you have less airtime to share your general thoughts about interesting things in a remote setting. I do agree with your general point and have experienced that too. Just observing more certain people equivocate about a topic is inspiring and that helps to learn more.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#602

Post by Sebb767 »

twayt wrote: post #578
montalbano wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've skipped over an important group of people here: in any healthy workplace, new starters, graduates and other junior developers benefit massively from being in the same office as their more senior colleagues. The amount they learn from accumulated small interactions that would not happen in remote working cannot be overstated.

What exactly do you learn from your coworkers? It isn't like you are pair programming constantly with senior devs all the time. I've learnt way more reading papers and documentation than being in the same physical space as more senior colleagues. People sometimes bring this point up re: onboarding but I don't quite understand what people learn that they can't do otherwise remotely.

For me, it's lunch breaks and coffee machine chit-chat. Just by talking to your colleagues daily and meeting people you'd usually never work with you get a lot of knowledge transfer - they talk about problems they need to solve, interesting challenges or just hobbies. You can also do after hour events on Zoom, but it's just not the same relaxed atmosphere as in the office and it nearly never happens randomly.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#603

Post by code_runner »

Closi wrote: post #536
malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

I agree with both of these hot takes…

I love a hybrid approach because I really enjoy the random conversations that crop up in the office… but my social life is so much improved outside of work in the last year or so that everything about physically being present feels tedious.

I have a coworker I call to talk shop for a few minutes and then bullshit for another 15-20 minutes almost daily when I’m wfh.

I’m very strongly considering asking my boss if my in-office/wfh ratio can switch from 3/2 to “whatever I want”

Better social life makes work feel like work. My drive to get stuff done has gone up, because I’ve gotta get out at a good time.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#604

Post by cde-v »

Closi wrote: post #536
malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

Found the climber

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#605

Post by twayt »

Sebb767 wrote: post #602
twayt wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you learn from your coworkers? It isn't like you are pair programming constantly with senior devs all the time. I've learnt way more reading papers and documentation than being in the same physical space as more senior colleagues. People sometimes bring this point up re: onboarding but I don't quite understand what people learn that they can't do otherwise remotely.

For me, it's lunch breaks and coffee machine chit-chat. Just by talking to your colleagues daily and meeting people you'd usually never work with you get a lot of knowledge transfer - they talk about problems they need to solve, interesting challenges or just hobbies. You can also do after hour events on Zoom, but it's just not the same relaxed atmosphere as in the office and it nearly never happens randomly.

Agreed, it is great when it works. I don't miss it though, many times in the past, it has been some "senior" dev high on his own stimulant supply dominating the conversation for the entire lunch, not letting anyone else get a word in edgewise. Either that, or it is the same 3 people talking about things that interest them, completely ignoring the rest of the people while the others just eat their lunch and observe.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#606

Post by nevermindiguess »

twayt wrote: post #576
Closi wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

This is unquestionably false for everyone I know including myself. 1. Many people already have built good relationships with their colleagues prior to WFH and talking to them over GVC helps the relationship. You are allowed to open up more when you know no one else is around except you and the person you're talking to 1:1. You don't have to be afraid that someone outside the meeting room or cubicle is going to hear y…

I would summarize your comment as “just give me the money and don’t bother me.” Easy to say that when stronger people than you have put up just with the things that your delicate character is unwilling to put up with, to build great thriving businesses and afford people like you the luxury of WFH. I say ‘grow up’! Face those aspect of the office work that brother you. Became a stronger person. Be more courageous. Our society does not need more incels working from home because ‘they don’t like the person sitting next to them’. Don’t be a leech on society. Get out and contribute.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#607

Post by code_runner »

jksmith wrote: post #406

I don't know about Apple, but I do have a ton of experience consulting for multiple F500's. Many at these companies who want people to come back to work are just middle managers who find it harder to justify their jobs since remote work has become so prevalent. They simply can't grasp how work can get done without them telling people what to do. And of course the easiest way to do that without requiring much thought…

I do think this mirrors my office’s original logic for returning but they almost immediately became more flexible.

At one point, returning to the office wasn’t mandatory but “good for our promotions etc”.

When I’m in office few if any people actually give me marching orders… and when they do, I push back, correct them, and continue what I was doing. (We aren’t great at project management and my position luckily allows for this)

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#608

Post by code_runner »

gorgoiler wrote: post #466

If you are part of a team that can be productive, remotely, then you are very lucky. I am not. We are in trouble as a tech business and have a very large piece of tech debt that we need to get over, this year. (We also have an amazing product and smart people invested in our growth. It’s one of those good problems to have , but it’s still a problem.) We experimented (a long time ago, before I joined) with an “open so…

Sounds like a lot of cultural issues. My pre-covid job was a very small company but similar stuff.

We hired an in-town workforce and cut the old guard out completely. Worked in person everyday until lockdown but had flexibility as well.

We were all pretty close (10ish people including execs) so remote work was fine and we shut down the office… I’m a much bigger remote work fan now because of how well it went.

The people on the same page will be on the same page whether they’re waking through the park or not. It may be time for the others to move along.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#609

Post by optimalsolver »

ripper1138 wrote: post #120
sys_64738 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because he is so high profile and a visionary in his field at Apple. Or was. He is merely an early big fish swimming away so expect more as draconian old-school companies try to drag employees back to their cubes.

He’s absolutely not a visionary.

Goodfellow is one of the most prominent figures in machine learning. He came up with General Adversarial Networks at the age of 27.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#610

Post by arinlen »

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers.

This.

I've recently switched officially to a de-facto full remote position after years of full remote due to COVID, as did most of my team, and I also see this pattern among the coworkers who decided to go to the office. The return-to-office cases boiled down to:

* Rented a tiny apartment to maximize disposable income but it's very unpleasant to live in, let alone work,

* Share a 3-bedroom flat with 3 or 4 newly-graduated and yet-to-graduate buddies,

* A young upwardly-mobile professional who wants to maximize his presence around the senior manager to fulfill his career-growth plans.

I dare say that in two dozen team members, only 5 or 6 want to return to the office, and about half of them need it because they can't afford a decent apartment.

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