A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#601

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #136

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Fear of rape or pressurised sex amongst prisoners is perfectly real, but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third in terms of sexual threat to female prisoners behind male warders and natal females and a campaign organization proposes rehousing transpeople (all 125 of them) in different prisons as their solution to prison rape over better safeguarding practises or single occupant cells which might offer…

>but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third

Here's the problem I have with this line of defense: it doesn't accommodate the reality of self-id and the likely downstream effects if it becomes the accepted norm. If all it takes for a male to be housed in a female prison is a checkmark on a form, we should expect that many cis-men will take advantage of the situation, thus creating a very real threat of abuse for women in women prisons. If I were being locked up for an extended period of time and all it took was a declaration to be housed in a female prison, I would do it. I would go from one of the smaller and weaker inmates to one of the biggest and strongest. It is a no-brainer in terms of my personal safety. And I have no interest in abusing anyone or taking advantage of forced-proximity. Imagine how many abusers would take advantage of that circumstance? An argument in defense of gender-affirmation in prison assignments that doesn't accommodate this likely reality isn't substantive.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#602

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #561

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impact we can have assuming we fix it? It just feels like we're being distracted. But downplaying it is exactly what you are doing, literally. To answer your main question, though: the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subj…

> the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. Citation needed. From what I can tell they are being given more leeway than any other group, and anyone who dares argue against their “rights” risks losing their job. Trans-people does absolutely not to seem to be at risk anywhere.

> Citation needed

Technically, no, I’d posit that in the scientific community of focus on this topic, it is considered common knowledge and likely an “a priori” logical conclusion.

But let me Google that for you: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=tra...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#603

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:58 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #160

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

> house intact trans-women Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals? Is sexual violation with a penis so much more horrific than other violations it deserves special consideration?

>Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals?

Testosterone is correlated with sexual aggression. Chemical castration is a treatment for rapists after all.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#604

Post by handrous » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

makeworld wrote: post #438

btilly wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean li…

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls.

From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe there's an epidemic of kids receiving medical intervention in support of this, who don't "really mean it". As best I can tell it just means puberty is weird and confusing sometimes, but that usually resolves itself (at least, more or less) after a bit, which should surprise no-one. I doubt many cases that are merely confusion or uncertainty or "experimenting" or whatever, reach the point of even having a conversation with a doctor about it. I could be wrong about that, but nothing I've heard has me worried about The Children. Suicide rates do, but not that.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#605

Post by notJim » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #230

smoldesu wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

It's weird to me that sexuality and identity are so intertwined. Why should someone "come out" as anything? (I know a lot of people "come out" as various things in a mere bid for attention... I'll leave that issue aside.) If I knew someone casually for a while who never talked about his/her sexuality, but one day they said "I never said this before, but I'm a heterosexual", I'd certainly feel awkward about it. Why di…

> Why should someone "come out" as anything?

> Why did he/she say that to me?

Isn't this just the process of getting to know someone? As you get to know someone, you share more information about yourself. I think it's a pretty normal desire for people you spend time around to understand you, and part of that is understanding the way you relate to other people.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#606

Post by ta122347 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #313

teh_infallible wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world you’re looking for is “real”

Trolling will get you banned here. You've unfortunately been doing this repeatedly lately. Please stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Its this sort of thing that backlash is all about. You cant have an unapproved opinion or refuse to use their terminology or authoritarians will silence you, label it as trolling or hate speech etc. Real is absolutely the simplest and best description. Trans and cis are poisoned terms their use designed to support the legitimacy of the identity. There is only real and fake.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#607

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #561

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impact we can have assuming we fix it? It just feels like we're being distracted. But downplaying it is exactly what you are doing, literally. To answer your main question, though: the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subj…

> the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. Citation needed. From what I can tell they are being given more leeway than any other group, and anyone who dares argue against their “rights” risks losing their job. Trans-people does absolutely not to seem to be at risk anywhere.

> From what I can tell they are being given more leeway than any other group, and anyone who dares argue against their “rights” risks losing their job. Trans-people does absolutely not to seem to be at risk anywhere.

You might refresh yourself on HN site guidelines.

Your comment would have been much more interesting if you had declined to include the quoted portion.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#608

Post by josteink » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

lovegoblin wrote: post #123

tabtab wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CIS (as born) women may also have (traditional) male-like traits. If you separate people by traits in prison, then why separate based on trans-ness alone? For example, large women are more likely to rape small women in prison simply because they can. If you separate based on such risks, then separate large women from small women also; why focus on just trans? Many prisons already separate by ethnic group simply to ke…

> "Regular" women The word you're looking for is "cis".

“Real” and most people will know what you’re talking about.

The only people using the term “cis” are trans-activists.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#609

Post by randcraw » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

mabub24 wrote: post #20

One thing I find quite odd is how the study of gender emerged out of an approach that demanded a critical understanding of assumptions and the things society insist upon (that there are only 2 genders, that gender is essentially related to biological sex rather than something that is manifest in social behaviour, ect.) and yet that view has twisted into a sort of all or nothing view that is extremely antagonistic to…

Given that reproduction in mammals is inescapably binary, and a really big fraction of social interaction in humans is shaped by courtship, both overt and covert, it's hardly surprising that our historical perspective on gender roles has been predominantly binary too.

I think another reason "things are different now" is that more of us think abstractly today than in years past. Many of the perspectives and possibilities we entertain today would have been alien to more of us 50 or 100 years ago, when the world was more conventional, more black and white.

Finally, with the multitudes of voices that no longer remain hidden behind mainstream media outlets, we're more aware of nontraditional, complex, and nuanced POVs today. That helps us realize that many psychological variations exist "between the lines", not as pathology but as a matter of natural variation.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#610

Post by apocolyps6 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

pchristensen wrote: post #583

scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

The concepts of "man" and "woman" are already doing a lot of work in language, society, law, etc. Redefining those terms would cause/is causing a lot of upheaval. Think of the concepts of "citizen", "resident", "immigrant", "ex-pat", "DREAMer", etc - all terms related to where someone lives and what set of laws applies to them. Regardless of how the person feels, the label isn't just for their own sake. Someone can b…

Do you think that "labeling" black women as women is similarly lossy? Or female cancer survivors to pick another example