Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#601

Post by maigret » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:39 AM UTC

IMTDb wrote: post #593

thomasahle wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. You can, if you give the other groups a ton of money too. Wages in Europe have stagnated compared to GDP [1] too, so it's not unreasonable to fight for higher wages. [1]: https://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/european-issues/0289-labour...

There is only so much "richness" you can share. You can't give 400 million american a nice car, a big house with a view on the ocean, 100% organic food and access to top level healthcare and education. Unless you produce those thing at that scale, and some things are by definition not scalable (there is only one "best medical school in the US"). So some people have more power to get access to/acquire those desirable…

There's quite a gap to be filled between the current US situation and "everyone has a house with ocean view". You might not be able (and not want) to bring inequality to 0, that doesn't mean the current level can't be lowered a good deal with good solutions. And yes, education can scale a lot - it's just that many gatekeepers don't want that. The story of humankind is making exclusive things available for everyone.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#602

Post by darkr » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:39 AM UTC

BorisTheBrave wrote: post #520

robertlagrant wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a major outlier if it's common. 100k USD in GBP is 73347.60. In the UK you'd be taxed 30% on that, including national insurance. https://listentotaxman.com/73347.60

No, in the UK, your marginal rate at that income would be 42% (40% income + 2% National Insurance).

If you have children, you lose out on child benefit between 60k and 70k, which adds an equivalent 10% in that margin.

Between 100 and 120k there is also the loss of personal allowance, which results in a marginal tax rate of 62% in that bracket. If you have children between the ages of 3 and 4, you also lose out on 15 hours/week childcare, resulting in that marginal tax rate hitting 89%

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#603

Post by knuthsat » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:39 AM UTC

ronyfadel wrote: post #589

Start contracting remotely for US based companies. For them, you’re cheap(-er) labor, for yourself, you’ll make more than what you used to make in Europe.

Not cheap if USD keeps falling compared to EUR. My income dropped about 12% since the last peak. Not that I'm complaining, but given the current USD circulation I'm thinking it might lose 50% of value in the next years.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#604

Post by fnord123 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:40 AM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #491

sdenton4 wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you buy stuff, though. Which was hard this year in particular, and not terribly useful once basic needs are met.

But one of the reasons why buying stuff was so hard last year (which I imagine is what you meant) was because people were buying a lot more stuff.

GP is based in UK where lockdowns closed shops. So it was literally hard to buy things when shops are closed.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#605

Post by comick » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:40 AM UTC

napolux wrote: post #552

> Europe has less freedom of enterprise (debatable) You would be suprised by the amount of shit you have to deal with in Italy in order to start even the smallest company.

Italians tend to complain a lot about their country.

And by the way, my fellow Italians and Foreign pizza-lovers. Did you know that Italy can be your tax heaven: https://www.agenziaentrate.gov.it/portale/documents/20143/23...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#606

Post by jspash » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:40 AM UTC

titanomachy wrote: post #421

ilikeerp wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not insane - it's pretty common in most developed countries. The US is a major outlier.

In many developed countries, 42% tax would cover healthcare, a pension you can actually live off of, and fully-paid education for all of your children. Californians get none of those things, and I don't really understand what it is that they get over (e.g.) Washingtonians for the extra ~30% in taxes.

They get to work 50-60 hour weeks. But that's not exclusive to California. Every state has that advantage. /s

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#607

Post by burntoutfire » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

netrus wrote: post #563

adrianN wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a home in a tolerable location costs at least 200k in my area and upkeep isn't free either. I can rent an apartment in a much better area for fifteen to twenty years for just the initial investment. A house can easily lose its value or at least cause large expenses, e.g. if the cellar floods or develops mold problems. Or if the surrounding neighborhood becomes worse. Selling houses has a large transaction cost…

I think the economic tradeoffs in buying a house are pretty country specific. For example, renters in Germany have very strong legal protection. It is very difficult for your landlord to kick you out, or raise the rent dramatically. I could certainly afford to buy the flat I live in, but I prefer to have the money invested in the stock market instead, and have someone to call (who also pays for) any problems. I also…

Interestingly, in Poland, it's the renter who is responsible for taking care of all problems, except structural ones and perhaps stuff like mold. Everything else is on the renter, and he is expected to return the house in "no worse" condition on the lease's end - meaning, repairing all the white goods in the house if they break etc.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#608

Post by knuthsat » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

passerby1 wrote: post #594

knuthsat wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Croatia the total would be about 63%. If you go through capital gains (no paycheck just profit after corporate tax, capital income tax and VAT) it's 53%. It could go down if some company expenses can be used for your life expenses. In Austria the total is 75%. In Austria going through capital gains would still be 70%. I'm very disappointed at how much money Europe sucks out of my work.

> I'm very disappointed at how much money Europe sucks out of my work Are you owner of property like apartment or house there? Just wandering, if that makes a significant personal economic difference for owning it in EU.

I do not own anything substantial. Saving for a house in the capital city would take about 15 years of frugal living as a programmer. I could also take a loan.

What I also dislike is the tax prepayments for business owners, which is basically legal theft. The government takes tax in advance and then gives you back the money if you overpaid after about a year. I wouldn't mind this if taxes were low.

Imagine being a business owner and there's a period of irregular income yet the advance tax payment arrives and bankrupts you.

The taxes here are just insanely high and everything is insanely inefficient. Healthcare, education and municipal services.

After moving from Croatia to Austria, it's much worse in Austria, a wealthier country but still, I see all of the same patterns of inefficiency and they are even worse because Croatia can't afford being so inefficient.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#609

Post by ako » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:44 AM UTC

thomasahle wrote: post #500

arcticbull wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

> You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. You can, if you give the other groups a ton of money too. Wages in Europe have stagnated compared to GDP [1] too, so it's not unreasonable to fight for higher wages. [1]: https://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/european-issues/0289-labour...

Everybody earning more will just lead to more inflation. I expect most of the additional pay will end up in higher housing prices.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#610

Post by atomashpolskiy » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

I don't think it's cheaper to live in Europe than in US.

The reasons for lower salaries in my opinion are:

- most developer jobs are in "real" businesses, which see IT as a cost center

- compared to US, there is a vanishingly small number of technically innovative IT-first companies, so there's little competition for talented professionals

- taxation is progressive and harsher in general due to being the primary source of govt income in most (all?) European countries, and increasing gross salary kinda stops making sense at some point

It would be great, if these issues were addressed, and there are well-known ways to do that. But I'm not sure, if increasing salaries is a noble goal per se. While much lower than in US, they are still decent and allow one to live a comfortable life. So it's rather US being an outrageous outlier (no wonder, given that post-WWII economy is operated on their terms). The elephant in the room here (as almost everywhere in the world) is real estate. Now that one (and prevalence of mortgage) is a huge issue, and it needs to be solved at all costs, even if just for the sake of younger people.

As for salaries, most developers simply don't generate that much real value (real, not money). Though they somewhat compensate for inproportionate incomes on a "higher" level of economy by over-spending the surplus above the necessary living costs, though I doubt it's by design.

Overall, I'd argue, that developer (and many other occupations) salaries should be lower, so that we had fewer get-rich-quickers to work and to compete with. To be clear, I'm not saying that a dev should earn as a janitor, but rather on par with other "highly skilled" occupations.