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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#591

Post by davidhbolton »

eloisant wrote: post #543
throwaway894345 wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s risky about the investment? I’m of the impression that real estate is one of the more stable investments, subprime mortgage scandals notwithstanding.

Buying your home isn't an investment, it's only an investment if you can sell it at any time. Risks of buying your home include: - Not being able to move if you can't sell (because the market isn't right) - Being stuck in a house where you pay a high mortgage while you could rent for much less after a crash (what happened in Spain after 2008). Note than in US you can give up your house and your mortgage goes away, bu…

If you live in a country with mass migration then both house prices and rental prices increase almost constantly. I lived in London from 1996-2015. I bought a house in 2000, it tripled in value by 2015 and I sold up and moved out of London. Its kind of mad.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#592

Post by jakub_g »

As already discussed in many places, it's not possible to reach US/SV levels of salary in Europe due to differences in the model of society, taxation etc.

Note however that US companies in Europe pay definitely above the market. So it's not impossible. Partially they pay more because they have more money, as they have access to VS/are listed on stock exchange (and being US-based is almost a most to have this opportunity, even if there are a few successful EU companies)

IMO the diff is that in US companies, developers are more than code monkeys who execute what they are told by the PM. Developers in US companies have more impact hence higher salary: This article nicely summarizes this: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/what-silicon-valley-gets-...

Can we reproduce this in EU? EU historically has been more hierarchical when it comes to doing business. Young founders probably are less like that, but we need both different attitude to doing business ("IT brings value", not "IT is cost center") + the capital.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#593

Post by IMTDb »

thomasahle wrote: post #500
arcticbull wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

> You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. You can, if you give the other groups a ton of money too. Wages in Europe have stagnated compared to GDP [1] too, so it's not unreasonable to fight for higher wages. [1]: https://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/european-issues/0289-labour...

There is only so much "richness" you can share. You can't give 400 million american a nice car, a big house with a view on the ocean, 100% organic food and access to top level healthcare and education. Unless you produce those thing at that scale, and some things are by definition not scalable (there is only one "best medical school in the US"). So some people have more power to get access to/acquire those desirable items. And software engineers are often amongst the first in line. If you want other people to have a better access to these, by definition that leads to current "first in line" to loose something.

Giving more money to everyone is easy, everyone was a billionaire in Zimbabwe few years back. That did not make them "rich".

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#594

Post by passerby1 »

knuthsat wrote: post #488
benjaminl wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget the 10.25% sales tax. This puts the combined marginal tax rate at 59.85%. (24 + 9.3 + 7.65 + 7.65 + 1 + 10.25)

In Croatia the total would be about 63%. If you go through capital gains (no paycheck just profit after corporate tax, capital income tax and VAT) it's 53%. It could go down if some company expenses can be used for your life expenses. In Austria the total is 75%. In Austria going through capital gains would still be 70%. I'm very disappointed at how much money Europe sucks out of my work.

> I'm very disappointed at how much money Europe sucks out of my work

Are you owner of property like apartment or house there? Just wandering, if that makes a significant personal economic difference for owning it in EU.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#595

Post by heavyset_go »

arcticbull wrote: post #85
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

> You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money.

The inequality exists between those who need to work for a living and the ownership class that does not.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#596

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

knuthsat wrote: post #488
benjaminl wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget the 10.25% sales tax. This puts the combined marginal tax rate at 59.85%. (24 + 9.3 + 7.65 + 7.65 + 1 + 10.25)

In Croatia the total would be about 63%. If you go through capital gains (no paycheck just profit after corporate tax, capital income tax and VAT) it's 53%. It could go down if some company expenses can be used for your life expenses. In Austria the total is 75%. In Austria going through capital gains would still be 70%. I'm very disappointed at how much money Europe sucks out of my work.

Yes, but free studies, free healthcare and unemployment benefits.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#598

Post by jlokier »

alkonaut wrote: post #498
yamrzou wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another comment said: to pursue passions that do not pay well.

The most scarce resource is time. Switching job would presumably require more work from me at least temporarily. I'd perhaps need to commute initially at least, for example. I'd like to know this: if I got 2x the pay in the US, could I instead ask to work 1/2 and get the current pay level I have? Most likely no, right? So in what way is that higher pay actually helping me pursue passions? I'd be working at least as m…

Time isn't the most scarce resource for everyone.

If your passions require more money than you have, it doesn't matter that you have 6-8 weeks off. You still can't do the things you want to do. You can relax, travel (limited due to funds though), which are both nice for a while but eventually become frustrating.

My passions are expensive - too expensive unfortunately. For example I could really do with a house to build things in, but I can't afford to buy a house, so I can't build the sorts of things I'd like to build in one. And you should see the small factory I wish I could afford.

Even small stuff like attending conferences is too expensive if you can't afford the travel and tickets.

As I've gotten older I've come to see there are many situations where, if I'd had more money, things I tried to work on would have turned out very differently. That's the #1 reason I now pay more attention to income than I did for a long time, when I focused on voluntary work for what I thought was worth investing time in, with "SWE side gigs" to pay the bills.

> When exactly are those passions supposed to be pursued? When retiring? I'm pursuing that now. I have had 6-8weeks off in summer the last 10 years. I like to travel, etc.

Depending on what they are, it may have to be evenings, weekends, or when retiring.

That'a definitely a compromise. But if you don't have the money and your passion projects need money, it will probably be never.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#599

Post by passerby1 »

arcticbull wrote: post #158
betaby wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link, GINI of Canada and Tajikistan is the same or Finland and Azerbaijan. Totalitarian states like Belarus or Kazakhstan have one of the lowest GINIs in the world, now I question gini usefulness even more.

I assumed you realized we were constraining ourselves to places with a High or Very High HDI. If nobody has any money at all, would you not say inequality is low? If everyone in Tajikistan has $5 except the president, Emomali Rahmon, is inequality not low? I suspect you are looking for a pairing of HDI and Gini, which factors in both the development (and hence the standard of living) and the inequality. Sweden: (Gini…

> Borat - incidentally filmed in Romania

Romania: Gini: 0.36, HDI: 0.828

HDI is close to Kazakhstan, actually

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#600

Post by LockAndLol »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I agree, what for?

I would rather reduce the wages of those richer than SWEs by taxing them more and using that to reduce housing prices, increase wages of health workers and educational staff, and pay for more social programs to get the poor out of their misery.

Optimally, it's my firm belief that we should be working towards UBI to reduce bullshit jobs everywhere. I want people to be able to work on things that matter and things they care about, while living in a place they care about and for without having to constantly sweat about money.

If European SWEs wanted to raise their wages, we would have to unionize and demand a greater share of revenue. Also, we would have to vote for politicians that want to force large companies to pay their fair share in taxes. Google, Amazon, apple and others have a leg up because they can make billions without paying our countries their due taxes.

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