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Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

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601–610 of 642 posts

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your first sentence. But you lost me after that. I never asked for benefit to every single person perfectly equally. For society, having the quite significant proportion of people who are renters and apartment dwellers getting more than an insignificant benefit from our own government should be a thing. I am not asking for handouts. But for the handouts to those people wealthy enough (not rich per se but…

I have no horse in this race, but it seems to me the solar panels on single family dwellings do benefit everyone. Presumably there are times when the house in question is producing more than it uses, at which point electricity is being pumped back into the grid (I dunno about aus but in the US they're compensated far below market rates for this generation). So it sounds to me as if home owners are selling off space t…

"So it sounds to me as if home owners are selling off space that they own (at great expense!) to contribute to the grid."

Well, the "great expense" is subsidised is the issue. So not that great an expense. Effectively their power bills should cancel out the remaining costs eventually and then the home owner should effectively get "free energy" after that.

How much free energy? Maybe none and they are ripped off! Maybe lots. Generally people are betting on at least some, or they wouldn't do it.

My point though is why not spend that money on power grid infrastructure which would benefit all of us!

In particular the economies of scale should have more environmental AND economic impact than thousands of custom roof sites installed with varying degree of expertise and maintained by home amateurs.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your first sentence. But you lost me after that. I never asked for benefit to every single person perfectly equally. For society, having the quite significant proportion of people who are renters and apartment dwellers getting more than an insignificant benefit from our own government should be a thing. I am not asking for handouts. But for the handouts to those people wealthy enough (not rich per se but…

I have no horse in this race, but it seems to me the solar panels on single family dwellings do benefit everyone. Presumably there are times when the house in question is producing more than it uses, at which point electricity is being pumped back into the grid (I dunno about aus but in the US they're compensated far below market rates for this generation). So it sounds to me as if home owners are selling off space t…

> (I dunno about aus but in the US they're compensated far below market rates for this generation).

That's not true. California (which is a part of the US) uses net metering, under which consumer solar surplus is sold to the grid at retail rates.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air conditioning the outside is almost assuredly not sustainable.

Not sure what you mean “the outside”. Only indoors are air-conditioned (using electricity). And in the UAE, right now, electricity generation is slowly being switched over solar energy (away from natural gas), which is clean / renewable / sustainable. ( https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/worlds-largest-... )

It was Qatar that I was thinking of.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/world/climate-e...

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#604

All true, but I think they're missing the real issue here. Renewables (esp. solar and wind) are, yes, dropping in cost exponentially, and this means they are currently zooming past fossil fuels in terms of affordability. There's an issue in regards to batteries, but that also seems to be on a learning curve that makes it better every year, so that won't buy fossil fuels much more time. Now, instead of rooting for tha…

Fossil fuels also creates petrochemicals used to create plastics and other products. Does anyone see plastics disappearing?

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re massively underestimating the infrastructure needed to take oil and put it in the consumers’ hands. Biomass puts CO2 back in the atmosphere, but at least it’s not increasing the total CO2 in the biosphere.

Most of that infrastructure is in the extraction and transport to the destination country. Once the oil is there, all you really need is a storage system, and a way for consumers to buy it. There's no need to pump it around, at all. You can transport it by truck. Growing up, my family had a fuel oil heater. We'd have the tank filled periodically, and that was all there was. Likewise, gas pumps are just storage tanks…

That only works for relatively small amounts of fossil fuels for a relatively short distance. Once you start to consume a lot of oil, you really need to start piping it around and only depending on trucks for last mile work. America[0] and Europe[1] are covered in pipelines to move both oil and natural gas. Trucks are only used to cover the distance between where the pipe stops and the gas station is.

0 - https://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/n...

1 - https://theodora.com/pipelines/europe_oil_and_gas_pipelines_...

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#606
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EIA projections are garbage and have been for years, go look at their own old projections if you want to verify this. Okay. > World coal consumption peaked in 2013, not sure why you believe it is coming back in 2050?! Because more than half the world's population has yet to industrialize. > Most of the new global energy production brought online is renewables, and has been for the last 4 years.. Okay. > Not sure wh…

> Because more than half the world's population has yet to industrialize. This was true when the projections were that renewables would be more expensive than fossil fuels, but “developed” countries would invest in CO2 reduction “for the greater good”. However, as per the article, renewables (including batteries) are going to become significantly cheaper than fossil fuels. Any reason to believe countries “looking to…

> Any reason to believe countries “looking to industrialize” will opt for the more expensive fossil fuel option?

Sure, it isn't cheaper or more economical. You are not going to industrialize with rooftop solar panels. Or wind farms which only produce electricity when its windy. For the same reason batteries or gas is cheaper than jet fuel but you can't power a plane on double a batteries.

There are major geopolitical "wars" happening right now over gas/oil pipelines.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-29/nord-stre...

If "renewables" were cheaper or going to be cheaper, why would europe, russia, US, middle east, etc waste their time?

Or fight horrific wars over pipelines.

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/is-the-fight-over-...

Here is the US oil production. Notice that huge spike the last 10 years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Crude_Oil_Production_a...

Here is US gas production. Notice the huge spike the last 10 years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Natural_Gas_Production...

The "renewables" are cheap and going to save the world are for naive children who don't know how the world works. The kind of naive people who think veganism is good for the environment/animals or that we can solve our landfill issues by flying garbage into the sun. Or the naive people who think renewables are actually good for the environment.

Renewable energy production is going to rise for sure, but much of that will be hydroelectric power via dams. Those cause their share of environmental problems.

If wealthy developed nations are opting for "more expensive fossil fuel", even to the point of going through costly wars, what do you think poor undeveloped countries are going to do? It's not rocket science.

The ony solution to our fossil fuel problem is a revolutionary breakthrough like fusion. That's it. Until then the world is going to burn fossil fuel for many more decades at the very least.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#607
post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're not UBI, they're featherbedded kleptocracies. Everything keeps running provided they have the income to maintain the corruption and trickle down at every level to the officials who expect a varying scale of bribes and kickbacks. The system though ultimately is designed to ensure wealth flows upwards to the top, not to actually build a capitalist economy with a guaranteed minimum living standard.

But the effect is same. At the end of the day citizens survive on state welfare. Nobody said UBI is contingent on a corruption-free, western democracy.

Sure but it's a worthless environment to study the effects: people underperforming are disproportionately compensated (there's no remotely fair career progression possible) - so we get no data on how it affects how people take job opportunities. The cost is staggering - far higher then UBI would cost - because of the corruption and bribes. And measures of social wellbeing - happiness and the like - are grossly distorted, what with the general pervading stress of ensuring you don't irritate or underbribe the wrong people and get cut to pieces with a bone saw.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#608
post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're willfully ignoring statements. Your father asked you to invest in one company's single security. The UAE, Singaporean and Norwegian wealth funds are invested in everything from real estate to stocks to bonds to private equity. If those funds were to fail, the cause of that would be because the underlying securities failed, which would imply a collapse of the global financial system. As for the managers' capabi…

> You're willfully ignoring statements. There is no need for that kind of language. I give the example of my father’s advice because, to repeat myself for emphasis, the global financial system did in fact go very very badly wrong (and not for the first time). The fact that his argument was also your argument is the segue, not the point. > it's not some dude sitting in an office managing a trillion dollars - it's a te…

> the global financial system did in fact go very very badly wrong (and not for the first time).

And has since tripled from pre-GFC peaks. Markets are cyclical, you think funds haven't baked that into their models?

> I wish to imply that (1) things change, and (2) that a current state of competent management is not something that can be assured forever.

Competency in management is a passed down skill, not an innate skill that someone alone possesses. From what I've observed by working with them directly, all SWFs hire the best people across the world, without discriminating based on nationality (except for Chairmanship). As long as the global talent pool exists at the same standards or higher, these funds will have the manpower required to manage. In most cases, they even paid better than most private investment firms, and all of them paid more than tech, management consulting or investment banking. A lot of their venture arms were led/advised by former tech entrepreneurs for instance.

> After all, I would not imply that you think that Lloyds bank lost so much market cap because “some dude” was planning their business strategy

LBG lost so much market cap precisely because some dudes, the CEOs, failed in planning their business strategy well. All of the UK banks messed up big time during the GFC, and hence all of them are failures right now. Barclay's is only standing now because the Qataris bought into it. But that's one sector in one country alone.

> This implication was illustrated with one of many historical examples of nations and empires thought indefatigable at their peak which are now no more

None of Norway, the UAE or Singapore are empires. If you want to talk about nations, France, Spain, Norway, Sweden, etc still exist as independent nations even after so many centuries right? In almost all cases, they've even bumped up their GDP, even if not by much, in spite of losing their colonial holdings.

> I believe that was caused by teams of highly brilliant investors applying a Nobel-prize winning formula.

You're talking about Long Term Capital Management (LTCM) collapsing, which happened in 1997. Those Nobel-winning guys failed by betting massively on Russian securities, believing that Russia would open up after USSR dissolution. Again, the focus on one strategy alone.

Point was, you are focusing on one investment alone in all examples. Meanwhile, these SWFs are vastly diversified across various security products. As I said before, if you want to take down any SWF, you would have to take down the global economy. That would mean taking down BOTH USA and China, which these countries are invested into. Even if only one country collapsed, these funds will survive because they are that diversified. While the GFC punished most of the finance industry, these funds survived because they were highly spread out. If the USA AND China were to collapse though, I doubt the free market concept would even exist by then. That would mean no more FAANG, no more tech companies, no more cushy SV jobs, heck, no more HackerNews. I doubt (and they doubt too) that the USA and China would let such a collapse happen though - as we've seen in the GFC era, and currently in the C19 era.

> however it was also used by British people in the sense of never ending dominance

Their mistake, classic British hubris. Not to mention, as I've said before, neither the UAE, Norway, Singapore, etc consider themselves as empires in this day and age. On the contrary, all of these places are extremely cautious about the future - the UAE fund constantly worries about oil drying up and began investing into renewables research around the world since the early 2000s, Singapore worries constantly about global warming and Malaysia cutting them off, Norway's SWF worries too much about being too dependent on oil revenues...

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#609
post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the effect is same. At the end of the day citizens survive on state welfare. Nobody said UBI is contingent on a corruption-free, western democracy.

Sure but it's a worthless environment to study the effects: people underperforming are disproportionately compensated (there's no remotely fair career progression possible) - so we get no data on how it affects how people take job opportunities. The cost is staggering - far higher then UBI would cost - because of the corruption and bribes. And measures of social wellbeing - happiness and the like - are grossly distor…

But do you expect any different from real UBI without any empirical evidence? It is easy to speculate that citizens would achieve some magical enlightened higher state of being where they would dedicate themselves in pursuit of the arts and entrepreneurship. The reality may be that most would just spend the day gaming and smoking marijuana. By discounting the Arabic states, it is doing social science and economics a disservice just because they do not fit the expectations of advocacy and academia. I don't think endemic corruption means that the Arabic model have absolutely zero value, they are hardly the only wealthy country with pervasive grift. Letting political views and biases leak into social science and economics is not helpful at all.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery was and is never supposed to take up the entire storage load of a network - nobody is designing or forecasting future networks in that way. Batteries provide fast response Pumped hydro is what is being used on a lot of networks and in future network planning. Ironically old open cut mines are often perfect locations for them. This paper discusses an algorithm used to find pumped hydro sites - there is _a lot_…

Pumped hydroelectricity is geographically dependent - you need a valley or mountain that you can dam up to build pumped hydro. While it may be great for South Australia, the region examined in your linked paper, it's wrong to assume that this availability is uniform.

The available isn't uniform, but it sure is widespread!

"The perception has been there are limited sites for pumped hydro around the world, but we have found hundreds of thousands."

https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-530000-potent...

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