Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#601

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:27 AM UTC

zpeti wrote: post #548

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

I think you would only see inflation where supply is constrained and even then only in limited areas. Food is likely to be safe as supply exceeds demand.

Slum properties in richer areas might see it however perhaps those people living on the breadline in a rich city would take their BI and migrate away.

UBI does not create more wealth.

Nor do pensions for the elderly yet we still pay them.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#602

Post by nickpp » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:28 AM UTC

I am afraid UBI completely ignores the human psyche produced by millions of years of evolution. We have evolved to conserve our energy and do the least amount of work necessary. In general, motivation comes in two flavors: carrot and stick. But it seems that in general population, stick is a much more prevalent form of motivation.

Thus if you give people UBI, you rob them of the most basic motivation to get out there and improve themselves. I am sure if I had UBI when I was young I would've stayed at my parents', smoking weed, jerking off and playing computer games all they. The fact that I couldn't afford these things made me go out, get a job and educate myself towards making something out of my life.

So, am I wrong? I hope so. I really want UBI to succeed, it seems like such a wonderful idea. But so did communism and we know how that turned out...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#603

Post by cies » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:28 AM UTC

UBI + a wealth cap (on say 10 million USD) is socialism 2.0 :)

Changing the UBI will make people less/more inclined to do bullshit jobs, changing the wealth cap will make people less/more inclined to "make a killing". People with more wealth than the wealth cap should be deemed an undemocratic force in society (they go lobby --use money instead of public opinion-- for their interests), and hence should be deemed undesireables.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#604

Post by flarg » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:28 AM UTC

I'm not sure why the biggest benefit of UBI is not promoted, in that it dramatically reduces the cost of providing state benefits? No more big IT companies changing crappy old systems to meet new requirements. Just a cheque once a month.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#605

Post by conjectures » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:28 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

1. It's hard to see how guaranteed income would put the less well off more at the mercy of the well off. And you don't provide a causal explanation of how this effect would arise.

2. Surely UBI is cash, not vouchers. At which point the particular lower-than-face-value scenario is moot.

3. This is a valid point. I'm not sure whether it's good or bad, but it does seem likely to entail some morality shake-up.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#606

Post by mpweiher » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:30 AM UTC

mamon wrote: post #553

onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

That's a typical fallacy: that governments are always "good guys" and never have any bad intentions. UBI will be a step towards totalitarism, that's a given.

The government, unlike corporations for example, is accountable to the public in elections.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#607

Post by manigandham » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:30 AM UTC

arunkd13 wrote: post #600

onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

Employees should not depend on the government for their ability to walk away from a job. They should depend on real assets that help them live more self sufficiently outside of their employment. This should include family, friend and other forms of community ties.

The power divide includes having this kind of support and real assets. You have to start somewhere.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#608

Post by nicoburns » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:30 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #590

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. The main point is that it makes people dependent of the State if they entirely live on the UBI, which is a pretty poor behavior to encourage - the larger the UBI-reliant pop…

People are dependent on the state anyway. Wealthy people are the most dependent on the state. Because they rely on it to defend their property rigts. Without which they would not be able to keep their wealth.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#609

Post by jay_kyburz » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:30 AM UTC

zanny wrote: post #523

jay_kyburz wrote: post #518

A UBI seems to me like an overly complicated way to just give everybody a free food, cloths, shelter, electricity, internet, and medicine. Why don't we just make that stuff free. Every person can just go to a special Costco like store and spend x credits a month taking whatever they want. That way we can just make that stuff as efficiently as possible, rather than messing with the whole economy.

Because the logistics of government bodies trying to guarantee essentials while somehow getting them as efficiently as markets in optimal conditions can is anything but simple. The IRS sent me a $1200 months ago via direct deposit in the bank account it already had on record for me. Setting up public bank accounts at post offices so every citizen has access and having the tax apparatus that already collects all your…

Here in Australia we are mostly there with a lot of these things. Medicare could be extended to dental. We have housing but there could be more of it. Food and clothes seems easy.

It might be harder than just handing out cash, but it would be significantly cheaper, and could be implemented in small steps.

Staff and fund it properly. Have a good corruption watchdog. Run government departments against each other with bonuses for "the winners".

Fix government, don't dismantle it.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#610

Post by kashug » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:31 AM UTC

zpeti wrote: post #548

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

Many places where I have seen people wanting to introduce UBI, increased (flat percentage) tax is often also suggested. The percentage is then suggested to be set at a level so that:

- People at low average income will have more money (the UBI-increase will be higher than the tax-increase)

- Average income: You get as much as before.

- Higher income: you pay more in taxes than you get from UBI.

Basically it ends up being a way to move money from the ones with higher incomes to the ones with less. It will ofc still give some inflation as poor people have more funds for basic needs. But other people will have less - and the average person just as much as before. Limiting the effect of the inflation.