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George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

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Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#601

Post by ChefboyOG »

throwaway_USD wrote: post #586
kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

>"the militarization and use of force tactics of US law enforcement are not a problem" then I'd like to hear why you think so given this evidence. Just to play devils advocate, can't I conclude there is a problem without that problem being the "militarization" of the police force. In other words aren't I allowed to conclude there was a problem prior to the militarization of the police force, and really what we are se…

I see your example of the extreme end a lot, and while I understand why people arrive at it, I think it's useful to question some of the underlying premises.

Oftentimes, I think people say things like "I don't think a few bad police officers ruin policing just like I don't think BLM is evil because of a few violent actors" because they have empathy for police officers who don't do horrible things, and it's sort of a knee jerk reaction against broadly characterizing people.

The problem, however, is that the two groups aren't equivalent. If we granted every person who identified with the BLM movement the same authority as we do police officers, the presence of violent actors inside BLM protests would be an issue. But we don't.

Police officers are given the utmost authority and deterrence in America. They have particular legal protections, they are authorized by the government to give legally enforceable orders to other citizens, etc. Even if the bad acts are a "drop in the bucket," would that be acceptable? And isn't the fact that these bad acts are persistent—regardless of frequency relative to good acts—at the very least suggestive of systemic issues?

In other words, consistent bad acts—even if infrequent—are a bigger deal when the actor is in such a position of authority. Protest groups are clearly not in such a position—hence their protests.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#602

Post by Scarblac »

bakuninsbart wrote: post #580
hajile wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obvious that you've never even shot a gun before. Pistols aren't particularly accurate in a shooting range even if you take lots of time to aim. With a moving target, adrenaline, and all the other factors in an actual situation, you're going to be lucky if all your shots even make contact with the target. Where do you aim if you want to "shoot to incapacitate"? No such place exists on the body. Even using small,…

Americans certainly know more than western/northern Europe about shooting people, but police here is trained to shoot to incapacitate, and it generally seems to work, as the fatality rate of police shootings is only about half as high as in the US.

Police in Europe is more trained in general. Something like 9 months of training to become a police officer in the US vs two or three years in western/northern Europe.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#603

Post by dec0dedab0de »

_xnmw wrote: post #550
lazyjones wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a clear attempt to manipulate opinion, I don't know why HN leaves it up. You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again. If after watching carefully select and cut videos on a Twitter propaganda account you believe the police has a systemic issue, you're falling for the same trap. It's the same way media manipulate you…

“Restaurants” are not a single institution with centralized authority. If you saw a 100 videos of the systematic malpractice in a single restaurant chain, you can bet that company would be shut down.

“Restaurants” are not a single institution with centralized authority. If you saw a 100 videos of the systematic malpractice in a single restaurant chain, you can bet that company would be shut down.

Police don't have a centralized authority. And it really depends on how big the chain restaurant is if 100 videos would have it shut down.

The better argument is that each one of those restaurants would be exposed and either they would put in enough effort to show they have improved or people would stop eating there. You can't boycott your local police.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#604

Post by alexpetralia »

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #413
alexpetralia wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's not a fair reading of his comment. Is it not legitimate to want accurate sources of data? This does not mean slightly inaccurate data is unusable, simply that it is slightly inaccurate and this to some degree impugns its legitimacy (as it should).

> Is it not legitimate to want accurate sources of data? Of course. I don't believe you honestly think that I am advocating for inaccurate sources of data. However, finding and discussing sources of different quality among hundreds is one thing. Saying that you only looked at two of them, expressing skepticism towards those two, and then stating that the whole thing is "filled" with "random junk to inflate the number…

I didn't downvote you and I agree with many of your points.

However personally speaking I would (and do) in fact discount a reading where even two sentences are highly suspect; it makes it not worth spending the time to read the rest of it.

As another example, I work primarily in data analytics. If I produce a report where even a single number is wrong, it almost immediately calls into question all of the other reporting I produced (did they use the same unreliable source? what transformations did they apply? was any sanity checking performed?). And, as it should.

Accuracy is incredibly important to making things appear legitimate.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#605

Post by [deleted] »

supportlocal4h wrote: post #522

When one 737 Max crashed, some pointed the finger at the pilots. When a second one crashed, the focus quickly shifted. It is a common attitude in aviation that even pilot error is really a systems fault. Perhaps opposing buttons are too close together, or some control requires attention to be diverted at the wrong time, or pilots are allowed to fly too many hours without adequate rest, or plenty of other things that…

[deleted]

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#606

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

leetcrew wrote: post #589
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the right not to be prosecuted for a victimless crime So if I'm driving drunk, then I'm not prosecuted until there's a victim? Hm...

I wouldn't necessarily say that DUI is a victimless crime. you might not hurt anyone, but you've exposed everyone on the road to excess risk, which could be argued is a type of harm. I'm not sure jail time is necessary for DUI. having your license suspended is already a severe punishment in places where you really need a vehicle to get around. requiring an interlock whenever the person is allowed to drive again also…

Well, here we step on a slippery slope of defining a "victimless" crime.

Many illegal drugs have a potential of causing harm.

Should the harm be purely physical?

Homelessness is a public nuisance, which we can choose to ignore, but so is walking naked in a school yard, which will be seen as a much more controversial subject.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#607

Post by UncleMeat »

vegai_ wrote: post #342
ss3000 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the existence of riots have anything to do with these instances of police brutality on _peaceful_ protestors?

Everything is connected to everything. If you have riots everywhere then people, including police, are on the edge. Also, are you suggesting that the riots are peaceful?

How come the police get to be on edge but not the people? You’d probably be on edge too after centuries of oppression in every aspect of society.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#608

Post by vorpalhex »

mindslight wrote: post #560
dragonwriter wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lawsuit settlements for the police committing human rights abuses should come out of the police pension fund. No, they should come out of taxpayer funds. The principal is responsible for the actions of their agents. If the public authority doesn't properly screen, train, supervise, and discipline police to protect civil rights, it is their responsibility and the responsibility of the public who chooses that authori…

When driving through other jurisdictions with speed traps etc, I certainly do want to blame those taxpayers for enabling their local gang to be attacking me. But if I take a look at the jurisdictions I am party to, I am powerless. Blaming voters is a fallacy of late-stage Democracy. The deep seated issue is the principle agent problem around elected officials. The police threaten the politicians, who don't want to ro…

You've made a common mistake, and that's confusing people on social media for the majority.

Most people don't want to defund their police. Per the latest Monmouth poll, about 60% favor the police (compared to ~11% for congress) and most people see the police as their protectors.

Police don't get a lopsided contract by threatening politicians and that's a grossly inflammatory claim. Contracts are negotiated like any other, and given that most people don't want to spend their time being spit on and attacked, it turns out you get to ask for a fair bit of protection in that contract.

> Blaming voters is a fallacy of late-stage Democracy

Blaming anyone else is a fundamental misunderstanding of Democracy. Everyone pretends to like Democracy until they realize not everyone shares their opinion, and then all of a sudden pull out the insults and attacks on fellow voters.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#609

Post by UncleMeat »

bufferoverflow wrote: post #357
nl wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't find the source, but of these only about 47 were un-armed and most of those involved protecting someone else from a physical attack. This is wrong. https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed lists 1ists at least 104 unarmed black people alone killed by police in 2015. I went though the first 20, and maybe 8 could have been accidents (one was hit by a car) or otherwise explained (2 pointed toy guns at police).

First of all, you're pulling old data. Try last year. But even then, half of the cases sound like accidents, out of 104. The remaining is pretty close to 47.

Why the hell would it matter if they were accidents?

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#610

Post by Zigurd »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #553
cies wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe "the right not to be prosecuted for a victimless crime" should be an amendment. Then homelessness/drugs-whatevers/prostitution can no longer have laws against them. "Address the root cause", exactly, and the root cause is the unjust laws. Though cops pretty much never being found guilty for unjust use of violence is a big one too, and I wonder what law changes can solve that issue.

> the right not to be prosecuted for a victimless crime So if I'm driving drunk, then I'm not prosecuted until there's a victim? Hm...

DUI is mostly deterred with civil penalties. This argument is not fully applicable to the question of victimless crimes.
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