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Let Snowden Come Home

newyorker.com

61–70 of 311 posts

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't this treason? Is "treason" against people and organizations who failed the country and abused the constitution still treason? Let's not forget that the revolution for independence was also treason to the British crown...

He should be allowed to testify and defend himself. The prosecution can present their evidence.

Sometimes it cannot. Would a jury in the South in 1850 condemn or free an abolitionist?

That's the problem with justice in full -- it's not just the law, and it's not just the majority opinion.

The first can mostly determine compliance (with its code), the second can mostly determine popularity or prevelance of a sentiment.

And they can do that only given all the facts (which they wont, e.g. how this information was used, special service people can just lie like they did to congress etc), and without undue influence from outside.

For something like Snowden's case (or the slavery example), who controls the media and public discourse is quite an important factor on any jury, that's in effect even before they got selected.

All that, of course, if anybody believes that there's a thing such as justice in general, and that while some things can be relative, something like slavery being bad is wrong whether the majority of people in an era thinks its ok or not.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#62

If he were to come back to the USA and then subsequently be detained, I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. I am hoping if such a time comes, that there will be a historic level of demonstration advocating for his freedom.

Many, many more people view him as a traitor for exposing legal foreign intelligence programs. He obviously did it for what he thought were valid reasons, but that does make it right.

Actually, it is right what he did. Given how much dirt has been exposed do you really think there was another way to do this? What Snowden did is a prime example of civil disobedience: sometimes a country needs to be called out on what it's doing is wrong, no matter what the laws say.

That said, whistleblowers are in for a rough time and usually get acknowledged for what they did when they're either too old or dead.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#63
post #51
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

At last count, Last Week Tonight as at least eight investigative reporters on staff. Even though it's couched as "entertainment" it's more in depth than most other "news" programs out there. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/29/last-week-t...

[deleted]

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#64
post #11

Perhaps a minority opinion, but I believe the NSA vastly overstepped and that they need to be reined in (much further than what the USA Freedom Act contains)... but also that Snowden probably should face charges. Snowden is charged with "willful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person," which -- I think sensibly -- is illegal even if the unauthorized person is a r…

Since the legislation is missing whistleblower protection (a fundamental flaw) there is no way Snowden can make any arguments in a U.S. court, at least not until the legislation is fixed. Unconstitutional or not, the law is just broken. It's painfuly obvious, and I can't fathom why fixing it isn't a higher priority (for example, wouldn't politicians who want votes promise to work for such reform now, after the Snowden debacle?)

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#65
post #53
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. All 12 of us would be fired up! More seriously, did you see the bit on John Oliver about Snowden? The majority of the US population have no idea who Snowden is. Be careful not to get caught up in our tech news bubble.

Kind of the hardest bubble to notice you're in though right? Especially in the age of social media.

Like a filter bubble?

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#67
post #36
post #2

It is infuriating to see SO many articles, even from publications that can usually be trusted, referring to this legislation as "commendable" or "significant reform". It is far from it, and we can't expect the couch-dwellers to pay attention while the dying gasps of the 4th estate trumpet this kind of non-change.

The USA Today headline was "NSA Data Collection Ended". I don't even know what to do with something so far from the truth.

In the end, they probably couldn't have asked for a better outcome. Collection continues, warrants are still unnecessary if you go about it the right way.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#68

Did he release secret US Army and Navy documents? Was he hired to secure them, but then stole them? Isn't this treason? Let him come back. If there is enough evidence against him, then he can stand trial. If he is innocent; then the government won't be able to prove a case against him.

> Isn't this treason?

Treason requires actions directly aiding a wartime enemy. There's a reason the US has prosecuted (let alone convicted) less than 40 people for it, and there's a reason they passed the Espionage Act, which is what Snowden was charged under.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#69
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad thing is that most people in America know more about Bruce Jenner then they do Snowden.

Can one reasonably believe that acceptance of transsexuals in the U.S. is a much bigger deal than NSA surveillance?

It's easier to understand, and easier to have a visceral, attention-grabbing (and, more importantly, attention-keeping) reaction to.

That's what appears to matter most in American "news" reporting.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#70
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with you as long as we also indict members of the US state security apparatus in VA and DC and around the world who authorized these programs as well. I'm not holding my breath.

At the least, I think Clapper should be investigated for perjury over lying to Congress. But the fact that other criminal acts are going unpunished doesn't really have any bearing on Snowden's case. The crime Snowden is charged with is the same regardless of who else is charged.

The state doesn't think it did anything wrong. All the way up to the president - and don't think the president wasn't aware of these operations - our representatives believe that these capabilities are necessary for the current and future security of the United States (which is, in fact, facing gigantic national security challenges).

The state does not want to give up these programs and it does not think that they are wrong.

Some members of Congress may think otherwise and some lawyers may think so as well. But the top brass even in the DOJ are mostly on board with these programs.

The most the state is willing to do is let Clapper 'retire' from service out of his official capacity and into a role where he can partner with the US government from the private sector and install a new general in his place.

As for Snowden, are there not mechanisms in our court system whereby lenience is given to those in special circumstances - whistleblowing laws being one of them?

I agree 100% that Snowden should face the music. But he doesn't believe he will get a fair trial in the United States and this is likely the case. So he's asking for amnesty.

I think that Snowden should continue asking countries for amnesty until it is clear that the legal circumstance in the United States and the conditions and location of the court he will be charged with (Virginia? Really?) will be a fair one. Mostly this means stronger whistleblower protection laws of the sort the Obama Administration promised but never delivered.

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