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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#61

Post by [deleted] »

danieltillett wrote: post #20
bikamonki wrote: post #2

More options: - Go solo. At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame. Try to pick projects that your clients will actually use, with new features and support contracts you will have steady income for the long-term. - Go startup. Stop thinking you need to come up with the next über-for-x. There are plenty of opportunities for small sass shops that cat…

The problem with age is you become less flexible. If your have a business where you know what you will be doing in 6 months time then experience is great - when your plans change weekly then the flexibility of youth is what you want.

[deleted]

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#62

Post by jayvanguard »

wglb wrote: post #31
tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

Ok, lets see. The languages that I have seen come and go as intense fads: * Easel * Telon * Powerbuilder * Codfusion * CICS (was actually taught in a "CS" course not too far from here) * PL/I (may be not totally dead, sadly) * IITRAN (maybe not that intense) To Tom's point, I know of a project involving 300 Telon programmers who had to be let go when a massive project failed. Few who invested in the above technologie…

None of these are programming languages in the sense people normally use the term (with the exception of PL/1). They are propriety frameworks and tools. Even PL/1 was an IBM developed language.

Proprietary frameworks, products, and tools are definitely a terrible thing to base your career on. Languages such as C, C++, Java, Ruby, etc. are a good investment.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#63

Post by seanmcdirmid »

nostrademons wrote: post #32
tptacek wrote: post #23

Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages! C++ experience is quickly getting less relevant over time, but stochastic calculus, digital signal processing, machine learning, and distributed systems aren't. Some of those specialties get more valuable; in fact, sometimes, the forces that make things like C++ less valuable actually clear the way for things like distributed systems to b…

When you're young, it can be beneficial to specialize in the "here today, gone tomorrow" technologies, because it negates the advantage of all the greybeards and lets you get exposed to levels of responsibility you wouldn't have a prayer of reaching for 10 years otherwise. I got my first tech job (at 15!) because I'd taught myself Java, which was then brand-new, and a number of local companies needed experience with…

The PhD route is different from the work route, it's not any better or worse. The PhD route allows you to pursue original research, hone written and oral communication skills, and in general allows for very different life experiences. Also, the work you can get with a PhD "can" be quite different than without (e.g. from a pool of ever shrinking research jobs).

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#64

Post by tonyarkles »

danieltillett wrote: post #20
bikamonki wrote: post #2

More options: - Go solo. At 40 you should be experienced enough to handle up to mid-sized projects, alone and on a reasonable time-frame. Try to pick projects that your clients will actually use, with new features and support contracts you will have steady income for the long-term. - Go startup. Stop thinking you need to come up with the next über-for-x. There are plenty of opportunities for small sass shops that cat…

The problem with age is you become less flexible. If your have a business where you know what you will be doing in 6 months time then experience is great - when your plans change weekly then the flexibility of youth is what you want.

I'd say more generally, as someone in their early 30s, that my experience says that if you're changing the plan weekly, the problem isn't with the employee, flexible or not.

In general, if the plan is changing every week, that probably means that the work I did last week was mostly pointless. That's a great way to burn someone out.

Good news though! I do contract work, and if you insist on changing the plan every week, you won't need to worry about whether I'm flexible or inflexible. I'll happily fire a client who can't make up their mind and thinks that the best path is to change direction every week.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#65

Post by crdoconnor »

tptacek wrote: post #56
crdoconnor wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't specialize in things that depreciate as rapidly as programming languages C has been around since 1972 and is just as relevant as ever even as the popularity of C++ wanes. Python has been around since 1991 and is growing in popularity. There is a trick to figuring out which technologies will stick around for the long haul, and it is one which most developers don't even think to try and hone. My career advice wo…

I am a C programmer. C is my first language. I have shipped C code. I'm pretty sure I've literally shipped C code, in shrink-wrapped boxes. I took my kids to the museum today and hung out in the cafe pushing commits while they wandered around. What was I hacking on? A C compiler . C is less relevant now than it was in 1996. A lot less relevant . Way, way, way less relevant. In 1996, most serious software was written…

I don't really see anything else that has taken its crown for systems programming.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#66

Post by therealwill »

leereeves wrote: post #57
therealwill wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"B) Are overly emotional and they all take things way too seriously." This can be a positive. My experience with 40+ year olds is that they tend to sacrifice user experience/security for what they know. "Our customers won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX as long as it gets the job done." My point is that an experienced programmer who is not up to date can be as detrimental an arrogant 20 year…

> Background - Got really pissed off at a 40+ dev... Why generalize from one encounter with one 40+ year old developer?

True, but to be fair I did praise the 40+ year olds who stay up to date and know their stuff. Just slightly jaded due to the ageism at my current job and lack of fact checking by management.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#67

Post by salem »

prostoalex wrote: post #49
eranation wrote: post #10

I think it depends a lot on the industry, a young SF based Rails / Django / based startup? I hardly see them hiring a 40 years old with kids that will ask for a salary higher than the CEO. A front end UI developer with knowledge of the latest Ember / Anguler / React / whatever they come up with next front-end tech? Perhaps they are more likely to find a fresh graduate (or just a self taught hacker who just rocks at H…

> But in big companies (Amazon, Google, Twitter) in enterprise software companies, banks, medical tech, finance, I think it's not that uncommon to find 40 year old developers. I think there's a bit of survivor bias. More interesting are the stories of someone who's not at one of those large or old-school companies. There's a bunch of skills (MFC, Flash, microcontrollers) that used to define 95% of someone's job, and…

I'd say micro controllers are pretty relevant to the latest rebranded hotness, the internet of things...

MFC and flash can die though.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#68

Post by nostrademons »

therealwill wrote: post #60
nostrademons wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on what industry you're in, it's quite possible that your users won't care if they have to use Internet Explorer with ActiveX. A number of older and slower-to-change industries still require IE6 on corporate computers; supporting anything other than that is counterproductive, because their employers' IT departments won't permit them to load other browsers anyway. I can't know if you're in one of these indus…

It is a HIPAA regulated industry that deals with patient data.

That makes it far, far more likely that they're stuck on IE6. Last time I went to the doctor's office, I saw a lot of very old Windows machines. You may wish that the world was a certain way (and frankly, I do too), but that won't actually make the world a certain way.

If you want to win this technical battle, your best bet is to say "I'll implement it in ActiveX if you really believe it is necessary for the business. However, Microsoft ended support for WinXP and IE6 in 2014. They have been actively campaigning to get their customers off of it. There are A, B, and C startups out there with competitive offerings that work on the iPad. iPad market share among healthcare organizations has gone up from X to Y% in the last 3 years, while IE6 market share has declined from Z to W%. If we implement this software as an ActiveX control, we will lose out on $M in sales, with the worst-case scenario being that our userbase upgrades from IE6 and we find ourselves out of business with zero market. It's happening already, as you saw from the market share numbers I just shared with you."

Basically, put the fear of going out of business into your management chain, with the data to back it up. (And if you can't find that data - then your management is right, and you shouldn't bother upgrading.) That goes over a lot better than "I read you should never use IE6 for HIPAA data on the Internet."

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#69

Post by derrekl »

I don't know a single software dev over 40 who isn't employed, and I know many that age. None of them had to change fields. Some are managers, but most are "senior" devs. Many of these guys have been programming internet technologies since the later 90's.

It seems in the places I've lived (LA, DC) the salaries are pretty squashed together after 5 years experience. Basically anyone with that experience is getting a similar pay check +/- 15%. For many after 28 you are close to being maxed on your pay which would put you in the same spot this article plops the 40 year olds.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#70

Post by j1o1h1n »

jmspring wrote: post #22
danieltillett wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with age is you become less flexible. If your have a business where you know what you will be doing in 6 months time then experience is great - when your plans change weekly then the flexibility of youth is what you want.

Define "less flexible", someone doing consulting has flexibility to pick and choose clients. Someone who continually learns is capable of picking and choosing technologies. I would think even someone in their twenties would have issues with "plans changing weekly".

Less "flexible" with salary and benefits, presumably.
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