Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in • Hacker News Board

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#61

Post by jackmoore » Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 9:47 PM UTC

enomar wrote: post #22

nostrademons wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but the guy who did V8 is the same guy who did Beta, Self, and HotSpot. That's like 20 years of experience in writing high-performance VMs for dynamic languages right there.

Microsoft could have hired him or someone like him.

Great things aren't going to happen by just having him on the payroll, Microsoft would have to make good use of his abilities by giving him resources, time, meaningful work, and not undermine his efforts. If they just throw him into unfocused micro-manged bureaucracy then it's just a waste.

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#62

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 9:49 PM UTC

apr wrote: post #25

nostrademons wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but the guy who did V8 is the same guy who did Beta, Self, and HotSpot. That's like 20 years of experience in writing high-performance VMs for dynamic languages right there.

Microsoft has no lack of talented engineers, what they do lack is vision.

They have a lack of vision. That makes it impossible to determine if they do have a lack of talented engineers or not.

Besides that, what kind of talented engineer stays in a company that lacks vision?

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#63

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 9:53 PM UTC

davepeck wrote: post #36

andreyf wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Vision" isn't an easily defined quantity. What MS lacks is incentive to make a browser with fast JavaScript performance, as they make most of their money off desktop apps, many of which web-based apps are looking to replace. So actually, the opposite is true: MS has a big economic incentive to slow down JS performance in browsers, because it will make them more money selling desktop softare. One way to do this is to…

Microsoft has economic incentive to stay competitive on many fronts. I guarantee you that MSFT is working hard to make JS faster, to make their browser more standards compliant, and to substantially improve security. It makes no strategic or tactical sense for them to do otherwise -- to improve the browser is not to make the desktop less attractive.

This is simply not possible for them.

Making the browser and web applications a viable alternative to their cash cows (Windows, Office, BackOffice) would seriously compromise the fat bonuses even mid-level executives get and would seriously jeopardize top management's position in front of their shareholders.

It simply does not happen this way. Not with a big public company that enjoy a monopoly with insanely fat margins.

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#64

Post by davepeck » Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 10:01 PM UTC

davepeck wrote: post #36

andreyf wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Vision" isn't an easily defined quantity. What MS lacks is incentive to make a browser with fast JavaScript performance, as they make most of their money off desktop apps, many of which web-based apps are looking to replace. So actually, the opposite is true: MS has a big economic incentive to slow down JS performance in browsers, because it will make them more money selling desktop softare. One way to do this is to…

Microsoft has economic incentive to stay competitive on many fronts. I guarantee you that MSFT is working hard to make JS faster, to make their browser more standards compliant, and to substantially improve security. It makes no strategic or tactical sense for them to do otherwise -- to improve the browser is not to make the desktop less attractive.

@rbanffy:

First, it is entirely possible for Microsoft to continue to reap rewards from Windows while improving their browser at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. I reject the perspective that says the browser will win at the cost of desktop APIs. Everything has its place.

Second, while Windows may make shareholders (and your hypothetical "mid-level executives") fat today, they are under no illusions that it will make them fat tomorrow. Innovating for the future is an earnest and honest goal at Microsoft. This includes the browser, too. Who is to say where the next cash cow will be?

(Also: for some strange reason, I can't reply directly to you. Why would that be the case?)

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#65

Post by icey » Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 10:18 PM UTC

andylei wrote: post #59

tjic wrote: post #4

If I had to rank-order the various humiliations I've seen, this comes near the top. Microsoft: "here's our best stab at what a great browser looks like - and it took us 14 years to get here". Google: "we've been working on a codebase for 2 years. We decided to release it as a patch to your browser. Our brief foray into this area has improved your best effort by 10x". Ouch!

this is kind of unfair. the lessons microsoft and the development community have learned from working on browsers were all things that the Chrome team gets for free. they also get to start from scratch, whereas the IE team has to work on an outdated codebase and provide lots of legacy support.

Microsoft is free to rewrite IE from the ground up any time they'd like. The only legacy support they need is the same specifications that all other browsers are supposed to adhere to.

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#66

Post by mhansen » Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 11:02 PM UTC

davepeck wrote: post #64

davepeck wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft has economic incentive to stay competitive on many fronts. I guarantee you that MSFT is working hard to make JS faster, to make their browser more standards compliant, and to substantially improve security. It makes no strategic or tactical sense for them to do otherwise -- to improve the browser is not to make the desktop less attractive.

@rbanffy: First, it is entirely possible for Microsoft to continue to reap rewards from Windows while improving their browser at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. I reject the perspective that says the browser will win at the cost of desktop APIs. Everything has its place. Second, while Windows may make shareholders (and your hypothetical "mid-level executives") fat today, they are under no illusions…

Long comment threads get an ever-increasing reply timeout to help prevent flames.

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#67

Post by icefox » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 12:47 AM UTC

thaumaturgy wrote: post #53

icey wrote: post #7

On one hand, I think this is pretty funny. On the other, I think it's a stunning display of just how much muscle Google really has to flex (and perhaps more importantly, how much they're willing to flex). It will be interesting to see how Google continues to treat companies it considers competitors over the next few years. The big guys like Microsoft will be able to handle it; but the smaller guys might have to start…

Worried? Are you kidding? I would love to compete against Google. I would pretty much beg for the opportunity to do it. Other companies are too reactive; you do something, they do something, the entire competition is just a boring back-and-forth game of mostly minor incremental improvements of dubious benefit to the end users. But Google? Now that would be fun. A lot of fun. If you let them get ahead of you even once…

I hack on Arora a cross platform WebKit based web browser. And your right, I am having a blast. I have even contributed to Chromium so I know what I am up against :) Knowing that they have a team of really smart people working full time and Arora is a few devs in their free time really does make me think about what is important.

I did realize one thing though. While Chrome can never ship with adblock, Arora can, and 0.10.0 out next week will ship with it. :D

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#68

Post by natrius » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 1:07 AM UTC

icefox wrote: post #67

thaumaturgy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worried? Are you kidding? I would love to compete against Google. I would pretty much beg for the opportunity to do it. Other companies are too reactive; you do something, they do something, the entire competition is just a boring back-and-forth game of mostly minor incremental improvements of dubious benefit to the end users. But Google? Now that would be fun. A lot of fun. If you let them get ahead of you even once…

I hack on Arora a cross platform WebKit based web browser. And your right, I am having a blast. I have even contributed to Chromium so I know what I am up against :) Knowing that they have a team of really smart people working full time and Arora is a few devs in their free time really does make me think about what is important. I did realize one thing though. While Chrome can never ship with adblock, Arora can, and…

Have you considered how blocking ads is bad for the way online services are currently monetized? I'd rather have advertisers pay for my services than have to pay for it directly. If you don't like that trade-off, why not ask sites you use to offer an ad-free paid version? It sounds like you're trying to get the best of both worlds, and it isn't sustainable.

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#69

Post by icefox » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 1:33 AM UTC

natrius wrote: post #68

icefox wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hack on Arora a cross platform WebKit based web browser. And your right, I am having a blast. I have even contributed to Chromium so I know what I am up against :) Knowing that they have a team of really smart people working full time and Arora is a few devs in their free time really does make me think about what is important. I did realize one thing though. While Chrome can never ship with adblock, Arora can, and…

Have you considered how blocking ads is bad for the way online services are currently monetized? I'd rather have advertisers pay for my services than have to pay for it directly. If you don't like that trade-off, why not ask sites you use to offer an ad-free paid version? It sounds like you're trying to get the best of both worlds, and it isn't sustainable.

It isn't enabled by default so users still have to turn it on at this point. AdBlock was the highest voted feature that users wanted and was the biggest feature I could include that Chrome could not. From a bang for my time/effort AdBlock was a winner.

Re: Internet Explorer 8 runs ten times faster with Google Chrome plug-in

#70

Post by thaumaturgy » Fri, Sep 25, 2009, 1:51 AM UTC

icefox wrote: post #69

natrius wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered how blocking ads is bad for the way online services are currently monetized? I'd rather have advertisers pay for my services than have to pay for it directly. If you don't like that trade-off, why not ask sites you use to offer an ad-free paid version? It sounds like you're trying to get the best of both worlds, and it isn't sustainable.

It isn't enabled by default so users still have to turn it on at this point. AdBlock was the highest voted feature that users wanted and was the biggest feature I could include that Chrome could not. From a bang for my time/effort AdBlock was a winner.

Hallelujah! Thank you for making that leap.

I'm no longer as fond of Firefox as I once was. It has persistent memory issues, and is getting more and more bloaty. But, it's also got AB+, and that for a lot of people is a killer feature.

I think there are a bunch of sound counter-arguments to the people saying that AB+ will kill their websites: one, users are sick of websites with more advertising-related content than actual content; two, fake virus alerts and other related ads are now one of the most common vectors for new spyware and malware; three, the ad revenue model is already starting to fall over due to over saturation, and maybe it's time that website owners start looking for a better way to do it.

So, thank you. I'll be trying out the next release of Arora.