U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#61

Post by walshemj » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:15 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #20

drpgq wrote: post #12

I wonder if any H-1B workers would have been among those laid off by Microsoft.

According to the minimicrosoft[1] blog comments, yes they have. UK perspective: absolutely no chance of visas for people outwith EU if you are in a redundancy situation locally. Endof. I'm surprised this could even be happening. Disclaimer: I live in a 50:50 city, in a predominantly Muslim neighbourhood where the 'recent immigrants' are Polish. [1] http://minimsft.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/18000-microsoft-jobs-...

Not sure what you mean here. I think that Finish ex nokia workers could work in the UK/EU if they have a job offer Finland is a member of the EEA area.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#62

Post by ak217 » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:16 PM UTC

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

This isn't a zero sum game for you and the H-1B visa holders. The H-1B and other skilled labor visas select for individuals who are intelligent, mobile, and entrepreneurial.

Those individuals and their families are here temporarily unless they can secure a green card (a tremendously difficult process that requires limiting their employment choices, handicapping them in their earning potential compared to you). Most Americans expressing your sentiment have no idea how much hassle immigrants have to go through in this process or every time they cross the border.

Historically, the United States has relied on this enrichment process to invigorate its economy with not just cheap migrant labor, but cheap entrepreneurial, technological, and scientific expertise. Many countries have suffered severe brain drain at the hands of the US precisely because of H-1B and other immigration policies. The US owes its technological and scientific leadership in many, many sectors to these skilled immigrants, who had to come here to get the environment they could thrive in. Their potential would have been wasted elsewhere.

Look around you. Many of the companies that constitute your labor market are built by people who took a chance and risked everything to move to the States, or people who moved here as their children. They helped the technology industry and the US as a whole to innovate its way out of the anti-utopia you describe, and will continue to play a key role in our worldwide technological leadership. They deserve to be here.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#63

Post by jandrewrogers » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:16 PM UTC

bavcyc wrote: post #2

Along those lines, the census agency says most STEM graduates do not work in STEM fields: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/07/10/cens...

There are an enormous variety of STEM degrees, particularly the "science" part, that have little economic value relative to the number of people with degrees produced e.g. marine biology. In many of these STEM fields the expected wage is essentially lower middle class because the supply of graduates greatly outstrips jobs.

Not everyone with a STEM degree is a computer scientist or an engineer. If you are one of the countless thousands of people with a low-value science degree then not only are there few jobs at any pay scale but you will likely make more money doing something else in any case.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#64

Post by cynicalkane » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:17 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #53

cynicalkane wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right--H1B workers do not have nearly enough rights. I don't really care for whatever else you have to say. Try speaking to me like a rational adult instead of telling me to "shut the fuck up". EDIT: I find it incredible that, judging by the downovtes, people seriously think I am obligated to respond to someone who has shown so little respect to me.

Now you are going to rightfully be down voted for insulting the rest of us by complaining about being down voted. Your comment as it stands now, should be down voted. You aren't new to HN. You know this is wrong. Don't do it.

I've been here long enough to see this argument before, yes.

I feel the same as I do now: that if it looks like people are using the downvote as an "I disagree" or "I don't like you" button, people are entitled to call this out and ask for an explanation. If no good explanation is forthcoming, this suggests the downvoters might be in error.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#65

Post by walshemj » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:19 PM UTC

curiousDog wrote: post #25

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

Agree with the downward pressure point. Personally, i think its a good thing. American companies (including start-ups) now have a larger pool of talent to hire from without paying Wall street salaries. However, I disagree that H1Bs are somehow cheaper. I was paid the same wage as my American counter-parts when I was at AMZN.

Why do you think that wage deflation is a good thing for the workers and the society they live and work in?

Look at the damage that deflation did to japans economy.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#66

Post by cynicalkane » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:19 PM UTC

bicknergseng wrote: post #43

cynicalkane wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since when did economists have tech worker interests in mind? All bow down at the altar of GDP, everyone else can burn. Good straw man, but most economists are left-wing academics who chose a low-paying career track despite having a very marketable degree. I don't know of a single economist, not even any Austrian nut-jobs, who seriously think GDP is more important than human welfare. But hey. Tell me, seriously, wh…

>Good straw man, but most economists are left-wing academics who chose a low-paying career track despite having the most marketable degree in the world. Wait. Is that a serious sentence?

Surveys consistently find academic economists to average left-wing. I had thought economics degrees were also the highest-paying (at 75k if I remember correctly) but apparently this has been outstripped by a few engineering disciplines, particularly petroleum, in the last few years. I edited my post.

However, having an economics degree is still a good way to make money and academia not a good way to make money. The point is people stereotype research economists as corporate shills or something, when they tend to be left-wing and most research economists consciously gave up money to work in academia.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#67

Post by ak217 » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:20 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #60

winter_blue wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one seems to realize how hard it is to immigrate to the United States. If you don't have a close relative (parent, sibling, or child) and are not fleeing persecution, it is quite incredibly hard to immigrate to the United States . The pathway to a green card (permanent residency), for nearly everyone else (i.e. skilled immigrants) involves getting an H-1B or L-1 first, and then asking their employer to sponsor the…

The H-1B is explicitly temporary. It might be a way to get your feet on the ground here, but it simply is not intended to be part of a path to citizenship.

That's not the case in practice. Many H-1B holders apply for permanent resident status (which after 5 years allows citizenship) via the employment-based immigration process (http://immigrationroad.com/green-card/immigration-flowchart-...). There are immigration law firms that specialize in maximizing your chances of success in this process, and many large tech employers have a support mechanism for this.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#68

Post by winter_blue » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:24 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #60

winter_blue wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one seems to realize how hard it is to immigrate to the United States. If you don't have a close relative (parent, sibling, or child) and are not fleeing persecution, it is quite incredibly hard to immigrate to the United States . The pathway to a green card (permanent residency), for nearly everyone else (i.e. skilled immigrants) involves getting an H-1B or L-1 first, and then asking their employer to sponsor the…

The H-1B is explicitly temporary. It might be a way to get your feet on the ground here, but it simply is not intended to be part of a path to citizenship.

I meant a pathway to immigrate to the United States. Yes, the H-1B is non-immgirant visa. My point was that if you want to immigrate (i.e. get a green card) based on your skills, the pathway (toward gaining permanent residency) in most cases involves getting an H-1B or L-1 first.

Most of these workers strongly desire to immigrate to the Untied States on a permanent basis, and the truly skilled ones (I'm not talking about ones hired by outsourcing giants) work really hard (and usually get paid really well), and contribute significantly to the company (and as such, to the United States as a whole).

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#69

Post by sdenton4 » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:27 PM UTC

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #46

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

As a computing specialist who makes a very generous income from a large US employer, I am an expert in a specific technology. I've also been in the position of trying to hire developers with similar skill sets. As a result, I might bring a slightly different perspective. I am a US citizen. As you point out, I don't need to dress "business casual" and I can (and do) work remotely, and the pay is good. But in some spec…

There's far less emphasis on in-house training for specific skills than there once was. My mother, for anecdata, came out of a computer science program in the mid eighties with her education financed by her employer. Companies today don't see employees as long-term investments, and that's one of the prime reasons for the lack of people with the specific skills that those companies need. Highly specific skill sets aren't really encouraged by the academic system, and as a result people with your specific skill set on the job market become a proverbial dropped twenty dollar bill: you'll never find one because someone else has already snapped it up.

Of course, treating workers as long-termers means changing the incentives. The current set of incentives are oriented around cheap perks to lure in new workers, rather than the more expensive measures necessary to keep people around for the long haul, like pay raises to keep salaries industry-competitive or other serious rewards for long term service. (one could imagine a partially paid sabbatical year or something...)

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#70

Post by cldellow » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 6:31 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #60

winter_blue wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one seems to realize how hard it is to immigrate to the United States. If you don't have a close relative (parent, sibling, or child) and are not fleeing persecution, it is quite incredibly hard to immigrate to the United States . The pathway to a green card (permanent residency), for nearly everyone else (i.e. skilled immigrants) involves getting an H-1B or L-1 first, and then asking their employer to sponsor the…

The H-1B is explicitly temporary. It might be a way to get your feet on the ground here, but it simply is not intended to be part of a path to citizenship.

I think it's more nuanced than that.

The H1-B is a "dual-intent" visa -- you can be on it while pursuing citizenship. This differs from the TN status available via NAFTA, for example.

Additionally, the H1-B has a 6-year limit in theory (3-year limit, renewable once), but can be extended past that limit if the holder is at a certain stage in the permanent resident application.