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The Benefits of Failing at French

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Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#61
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love TLP but losing your accent is easier said than done. I started learning English when I was a few years old and I've lived in the US for 22 years speaking English 99% of the time. My German accent is still clearly there. I'm not sure what it would take at this point but it's not something that happens easily. I listen to the way other people pronounce words but hearing your own accent is hard. Interestingly, my…

There are actors that grew up in many different countries you have seen in movies that pass just fine as americans. But it's impractical for most folks to work with a dialect coach for years, but it clearly is possible. And outside of LA the demand for dialect coaches is almost zero.

My father grew up in a very rural part of the U.S. and had a very rural accent as a result (all his brothers still do). When he moved to Chicago as a young adult, he realized the social stigmas attached to his accent were hurting him and he set about to get rid of it. I'm not quite sure how he did it, he says he just read the dictionary and practiced the pronunciation guides for each word. But it was pretty total, he can't affect his native accent anymore even when he tries.

Here on the East Coast, there's actually quite a few dialect coaches who make their living teaching Asian immigrants how to pronounce all those terrible English 'L' and 'R' sounds (among others) they struggle with. The immigrant community here is pretty large, and the desire to succeed is very high (and their accents are often seen as barriers to success, often rightly so), so there's actually a fairly robust accent/dialect industry here.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#62
This is timely. I'm about 4 weeks into a "let's learn Korean" self-study program. The last time I seriously tried to learn a foreign language was Spanish in high school and it was quite a debacle. But after many years married to a Korean woman, I finally decided I was embarrassed enough not knowing more than a few utility words in Korean to take the plunge.

I remember looking into learning Korean about 6 or 7 years ago and there really weren't many on-line self-study resources and very few classes I could take. This time I found an virtual explosion of resources, free text books, skype practice sessions, listening guides, vocabulary resources, etc. For more popular languages, like French, the number of resources is almost mindboggling.

I've decided to focus the beginning of my studies on raw vocabulary acquisition and I've settled on using Anki to do this. My friends know that I have a pretty bad memory, so I've been shocked and surprised at how well Anki has worked. In 4 weeks I've managed to memorize (to different degrees of recall) about 300 words (out of a list of the 1000 most common).

Last week I sat down to start my grammar lessons with a free university textbook and was even more shocked and surprised at how much of the text I was able to decode. I wouldn't call it comprehension exactly, but maybe 20-40% of the beginner-level sentences I could read well enough to get the gist without knowing any grammar. I checked ahead into later chapters and was amazed that I was still able to work out some non-negligible percent of most of the lessons.

For practice I watched a couple Korean tv shows (they love to put subtitles under everything which is helpful) and was also surprised that I could work out some bits of the nightly news. Not enough to really know what was going on, but within a month going from knowing basic foods and the word "bathroom" to starting some minimal comprehension felt pretty remarkable.

More recently I've been practicing language production and took the attitude the article advocates -- just focus on getting the point across, don't worry about all the grammar bits. So, when something my wife and I are doing involves some vocabulary I remember, I try to formulate a basic sentence around it. I know I'm missing some things, but I told my wife to just grade me on "is it understandable or not?" not on "is it correct or not?". It's eased up the pressure quite a bit.

More importantly, even if my little experiment fails in the end. Outside of language study, I feel much more..."engaged" all the time. Like my brain is turned up a little. I'm finding my memory is definitely improving and some mental tasks that were starting to become harder as I've aged have started to become easier.

It's actually kind of cool.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#63

The author hits an important point. I'm a native French speaker and speak to anglophones trying to improve their french everyday and the overwhelming majority gets distracted if they don't get the noun genders right, pick the right verb tenses and all sorts of things like that. They hesitate mid-sentence trying to remember the rules and get it perfectly instead of just saying "Tommy hitted me" like in the article. As…

There's another advantage the toddler has, not mentioned in the article. People expect the toddler to speak poorly, and don't make fun of him or treat him badly for doing so. I found being laughed at was a huge barrier to learning French when I lived in Montreal.

For example, many English speakers (and Quebecers!) I know have stories like this to tell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaFf2kWL45U (45s clip from The Monuments Men)

Now, as an English speaker, I feel like I need to do better for the ESL people I know. It's like having guests in my house. I want them to feel welcome. So when they don't know where the bathroom is, or they flip the wrong lightswitch, I don't make fun of them, I just pretend it didn't happen and offer to help if they ask.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#64
post #49

I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United…

I'm french and I agree,the language is bloated and too complicated. English might be difficult for a french native that didnt learn it at young age like me but it's much more simple than french. I wonder though why french is that complicated,in some other countries you have the official language and dialects,but often the core of the official language is tiny,so if one sticks to that core one will write correct sente…

Well, having the Académie française doesn't help the language evolve much!

Language should change over time, take on loanwords, simplify grammatical structures, etc. When they don't, they tend to get passed by by more dynamic languages.

One thing we're definitely learning is that adding lots of loanwords to a language does not mean that the language is becoming the same as the source of the loanwords. It's just becoming a newer version of itself. And eliminating baggage doesn't mean the language is no longer "pure", it's just making room in the language for new ideas.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#65

The author hits an important point. I'm a native French speaker and speak to anglophones trying to improve their french everyday and the overwhelming majority gets distracted if they don't get the noun genders right, pick the right verb tenses and all sorts of things like that. They hesitate mid-sentence trying to remember the rules and get it perfectly instead of just saying "Tommy hitted me" like in the article. As…

I learned French in my mid-20s -- in France. I spent a year learning French at a school and literally couldn't even understand fluent, spoken French by the time my ex-girlfriend moved back to the US. I stayed in France and began dating a French girl who didn't speak English at all -- so we had these weird intellectual/juvenile sounding conversations in the beginning - with me basically speaking confusing, garbled French 100% of the time. Point is, after about one month together with her, I understood spoken French very well, and could articulate some fairly complex thoughts. It just felt like the language came crashing into my head once I had to "articulate" what needed to be articulated and "hear" what needed to be heard. It's one of the strangest feelings of immersive learning that I can remember. Like DonPellegrino mentioned, I never really cared about gender and proper grammar, because... when your girlfriend doesn't know your language, you just have to force the thoughts out somehow. This might sound obvious, but if you have a partner who speaks another language fluently, just speak in your native tongue and ask them to speak in their native tongue. From my experience, the most powerful part of learning a language is just "slowing" it down in your head. You'd think you could just watch television to do this -- but in my experience (multiple languages now), you can't. It just seems like you need to be engaged intimately with another human being to get these results.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#66
post #22
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say French is more or less complicated than English (from how much you can evaluate the two fairly, though it seems like your English is excellent)? I'm frequently catching myself on how hard English must be to learn...having it pushed on to me in school is only second in born-privilege to being a U.S. citizen by birth. My Vietnamese parents have been in the states nearly 40 years, speaking English in their…

I'm French, so this will definitely color my judgement. I find English to be rather simple. The grammar is as simple as can get, and due to it being the international language people are very open to weird accent (including ze frrrrench wane ;). This makes it easy to start, even with a pretty rough command of the language. Then the main challenge (IMHO) to a good mastery is the large vocabulary, and the very irregula…

This is perhaps one of the more insightful comments on learning a foreign language I've ever read. It really crystallizes the tolerance of the listener to foreign speakers as part of the barrier to learning a language.

One thing I'd add, at least as a native English speaker in a very international area, not all foreign accents and mistakes are equally well treated. And this may help contribute to and explain why some populations tend to learn English more poorly than others.

My wife is a non-native speaker (from Korea) and despite speaking and understanding English at relatively high levels, is clearly not a native speaker. But she frequently laments how people we know from different countries seemed to learn English faster or slower than others. It drives her a little crazy to think that all our Persian and Russian speaking friends effectively spoke fluent English inside of a few years (even if they have some lingering accentalisms like w-v confusion), while almost none of our Korean friends have managed the same level, even after decades.

But as an English listener, we definitely tolerate Persian and Russian accents better than Korean accents.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#67
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget Montreal. It's the 8th largest city in North America. It has a rich history of bilingualism, but it's essentially French speaking.

My understanding is that 80% of people in Montreal use English as their primary language.

I would also offer my anecdote to the statistics that Tiktaalik provided based on a few trips to Montreal and French Canada over the last couple years--while it's true that many people speak English as well as French, English seems to be popular because of the large number of English speaking tourists that visit the city (in no small part because of its French culture). Even in the touristy areas you're greated with "Bonjour-hello" to see how you choose to respond. There were a few times I've been grateful to have some background in French, as the person I was talking to didn't know any English (this however, was mostly on the outskirts of Montreal and in smaller towns). Overall, I was surprised at how francophone the city/region as a whole were, as before traveling I had anticipated it being equally French and English.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#68

I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United…

Well it's dead to you, obviously. My counter-advice to the above is that on an extremely deep, life experience level it doesn't matter how popular a language is, in numerical terms. Or what will come of that language 500 years from now. What matters is what experiences open up to you, as individual, when you go visit (and live) in those countries, in this life, right. It's the people you meet -- and become friends wi…

EDIT: "in this life, right." => "right now."

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#69

The author hits an important point. I'm a native French speaker and speak to anglophones trying to improve their french everyday and the overwhelming majority gets distracted if they don't get the noun genders right, pick the right verb tenses and all sorts of things like that. They hesitate mid-sentence trying to remember the rules and get it perfectly instead of just saying "Tommy hitted me" like in the article. As…

I wish Chinese were the same way. Chinese grammar is very simple and there's little or no conjugation. A lot of Chinese words sound very similar and if you say a word in the wrong tone, you're likely to have said a different word.

Oftentimes, native Chinese speakers are bewildered when they hear learners attempting to speak Chinese. Not because they're being rude or condescending, but because if you're just slightly off they honestly have no idea what you're trying to say.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#70

I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United…

This is such a sad thing to think about. Truthfully almost all languages outside of English, Mandarin, and Spanish will eventually die out. But for me learning a second language has never been about practicality, if it was I already needn't bother knowing anything but English. I've been studying Japanese for 12 years now just for the way I can think about things completely differently, and for the way it sounds. I started with French in school and after I feel more solid in my Japanese I plan to go back to it (this could never happen, Japanese is fantastically difficult). As a language lover it is very disheartening to see the inevitability of the decline in human expression through language.
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