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The Data of Hate

nytimes.com

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Re: The Data of Hate

#61

Post by clarkm »

astrodust wrote: post #34
hawkharris wrote: post #11

Hate speech can be a good thing. When someone verbalizes hatred, he or she gives us a chance to push back and question underlying prejudices. This is always better than a heckler's veto of racist or sexist ideas. Drowning out the hurtful speech doesn't address the root causes of ignorance, fear and anger.

Don't forget that organizations like Stormfront give people purpose, something people often struggle to find in places like Montana. We all want to be part of something bigger. Some turn to open source, contribute to the community. Others build wild conspiracy theories and focus their energies in that.

> give people purpose, something people often struggle to find in places like Montana.

I'm not sure what this means?

Re: The Data of Hate

#62

Post by tokenadult »

The kind of people who hang out on the Stormfront website are the kind of people who cram all kinds of point-of-view pushing into articles on Wikipedia, "the encyclopedia anyone can edit." Basically, you would be wise to assume that any article on Wikipedia that pertains to any topic related to "race" (broadly construed) or immigration or the history of Fascist or neo-Nazi movements is skewed at present toward the Stormfront point of view,[1] although of course there are Wikipedians who are trying to clean up that mess.[2] People who gain their "knowledge" of the world from websites like Stormfront seem to end up like the unfortunate victims of early lobotomies performed by inserting icepicks into their skulls: permanently brain-damaged and no longer able to perceive or understand facts contrary to their ideological position. I can only hope that such a toxic website will diminish in influence as people who know better about those issues take care to promote understanding those issues better early and often among all the young people coming up in the next generation.

AFTER EDIT: I guess I would learn something if I asked why this was downvoted, not seeing any comment in reply here. I'll note for the record that some of the arguments given in this very thread for why it is a "valid critique" or "human nature to discriminate" as part of thinking about the issues Stormfront brings up get into our HN community from developers and other smart people who haven't studied history or social science much getting their knowledge of these topics from Wikipedia articles that have been subtly corrupted by Stormfront-supporting Wikipedians.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WeijiBaikeBianji/Anthropo...

Re: The Data of Hate

#63

Post by DonGateley »

hiddentao wrote: post #37
bhaumik wrote: post #19

Discussion around this article: https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1051922/ Germany's win today: https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1052081/ "Yes. I like Argentina also because they're mostly white, and they sheltered the heroes of our race after the Zionist take-over of Europe. But I was for Germany all the way. I loved how they utterly crushed Brazil in their own house. I don't like that they have to have an African…

And in looking through the discussion around this article (see link in parent) they seem to view separation of ethnicities (into homogenous countries) as the solution to their problems.

Interesting. That was precisely Stalin's solution to minimizing threats to his order throughout the Soviet empire and like it or not he was nothing if not rational. (Except, of course, for his assessment of Hitler's ambitions.)

Re: The Data of Hate

#64

Post by ninguem2 »

henrymercer wrote: post #45
dsjoerg wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these obvious reasons?

The hateful milieu arises from the mixing of four ingredients: One part legitimate grievance. For instance, black on white crime is a huge problem that is not talked about and not addressed in mainstream discourse. In Philadelphia, a close friend of mine got mugged at gunpoint outside of her apartment. Two blocks away, recently, a twenty-something woman who could have been any of my friends, was mugged, shot, and kil…

Your "legitimate grievance" adds nothing to explain the main hatred of the site, which according to the article, is anti-semitism. It's hard to believe that "Jews run Hollywood" is enough to explain that. I guess you need to add the old myth that Jews run the economy or some such. But then, that doesn't work well with the article's claim that the hatred is not driven by economic hardship.

Re: The Data of Hate

#65

Post by bootload »

cpa wrote: post #15
hawkharris wrote: post #11

Hate speech can be a good thing. When someone verbalizes hatred, he or she gives us a chance to push back and question underlying prejudices. This is always better than a heckler's veto of racist or sexist ideas. Drowning out the hurtful speech doesn't address the root causes of ignorance, fear and anger.

Although I think you're right, that is definitely not what's happening on Stormfront. There's nobody "pushing back", just racist people talking together.

> There's nobody "pushing back", just racist people talking together.

Not quite, "... Two weeks ago, the boneheads thought they’d got their man. For a decade, the pseudonym “Andy Fleming” has been troubling Australia’s far right and neo-Nazis – “boneheads” to their opponents – by writing about them. His blog Slack Bastard carries the work of a man who has acquired enormous amounts of intelligence, so much so that it rivals police knowledge. ..." [0]

[0] 'Hunting Australia’s neo-Nazis' Martin McKenzie-Murray ~ http://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/society/2014/04/05/h...

Re: The Data of Hate

#66

Post by m-photonic »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #47
msoad wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very true. They don't even hate non-White people. They just don't know enough of them. I'm non-White and was in Montana for a while. At first interaction it was obvious some people didn't even like talking to me but when I was breaking the ice and forcing some conversation they were very good people. Even interested in learning about my background.

> They don't even hate non-White people. They just don't know enough of them. From the article: > The percentage of Stormfront’s target audience [whites] that joins is actually higher in areas with more minorities. This is particularly true when you look at Stormfront’s members who are 18 and younger and therefore do not themselves choose where they live. The more nonwhites they know, the more likely they are to go t…

There's a difference between seeing lots of minorities around your town, and having minority friends. One of these things makes you more likely to post on Stormfront, the other makes it less likely.

Re: The Data of Hate

#67

Post by pavel_lishin »

bhaumik wrote: post #19

Discussion around this article: https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1051922/ Germany's win today: https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1052081/ "Yes. I like Argentina also because they're mostly white, and they sheltered the heroes of our race after the Zionist take-over of Europe. But I was for Germany all the way. I loved how they utterly crushed Brazil in their own house. I don't like that they have to have an African…

It sounds so stilted. Almost as if someone was trying to figure out, "What would a white supremacist say?"

Re: The Data of Hate

#68

Post by igravious »

henrymercer wrote: post #46
michaelochurch wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% legitimate grievance Legitimate grievance? How is blaming the world's problems on "the Jews" (as if they all operated as one) anything remotely resembling legitimate grievance? Poor, rural white Americans are getting a raw deal (thanks, in large part, to right-wing politicians they were misled into electing) but that's because poor, rural people everywhere are getting a bad deal these days. "Whites are an oppress…

"The Jews are to blame" aspect is NOT part of the 30% that is legitimate grievance. See my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8029096

Yeah, silly michaelochurch. It's black on white crime of course. (Well according to your comment.)

Add to that faulty logic.

Add to that the general degradation of morals and the kids of today, I tell you.

---

Let's completely forget the centuries long history of white on black oppression that has led to the unequal socio-economic conditions between blacks and whites. I'd, you know, cut them some slack.

---

You do realise that every generation has claimed that the "youth of today" are nothing compared to how things were "back in the day". I mean, really?

---

The only thing you said that made sense is tribalism. I would jettison the rest if I were you.

Re: The Data of Hate

#69

Post by [deleted] »

morgante wrote: post #52
QuantumChaos wrote: post #41

Even though they take their views to ridiculous extremes, sites like Stormfront do have a valid critique of the hypocrisy of liberal American Jews. Exactly the same people and groups who claim that White people desiring to live among other White people is stupid and immoral, also believe that Israel being a Jewish nation is non-negotiable. Only the far-left (e.g. Norman Finkelstein and Chomsky in some moments) are co…

> sites like Stormfront do have a valid critique of the hypocrisy of liberal American Jews. No, they don't. Don't legitimize their nonsense. Also, Israel is not meant to be solely Jewish. It's just majority Jewish, just like other nations are majority Christian/white. That's a security measure, not an expression that Jews are inherently superior to other races—most Jews I know (including Israelis) support the inclusi…

[deleted]

Re: The Data of Hate

#70

Post by pavel_lishin »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #47
msoad wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very true. They don't even hate non-White people. They just don't know enough of them. I'm non-White and was in Montana for a while. At first interaction it was obvious some people didn't even like talking to me but when I was breaking the ice and forcing some conversation they were very good people. Even interested in learning about my background.

> They don't even hate non-White people. They just don't know enough of them. From the article: > The percentage of Stormfront’s target audience [whites] that joins is actually higher in areas with more minorities. This is particularly true when you look at Stormfront’s members who are 18 and younger and therefore do not themselves choose where they live. The more nonwhites they know, the more likely they are to go t…

I'd wager that they don't actually know them; they probably cherry-pick the negative impressions they experience.
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