Live data from Hacker News

The Data of Hate

nytimes.com

21–30 of 115 posts

Re: The Data of Hate

#21
post #13
post #5

Love the closing line. That said, I have to be skeptical about this assertion: > The states with the most members per capita are Montana, Alaska and Idaho. These states tend to be overwhelmingly white. Does this mean that growing up with little diversity fosters hate? ...Probably not. Since those states have a higher proportion of non-Jewish white people, they have more potential members for a group that attacks Jews…

Your thoughts match up with Anders Breivik living in a part of Oslo, a city with a large portion of early-generation immigrants from non-western areas, which was predominantly white. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_End_and_West_End_of_Oslo

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't his manifesto discuss how he was radicalized in part by the minorities in Oslo when he was living there?

Re: The Data of Hate

#22
I'm glad an "Internet Developer [in] Jew York City" is one example that the author picked to profile. I personally believe that the current "sensitivity training" and "diversity-based" US K-12/college education based on African American literature, history classes on MLK and slavery is misdirected.

Instead I propose a curriculum where we teach our children the dark side of humanity and allow both white, blacks and asians express our racial and other prejudices openly and honestly. Then to encourage and train everyone to come up with a plan of their own to overcome whatever perceived prejudices in athletics, academics or artistic outlets offered in schools.

Instead of suppressing the human nature to discriminate and giving people a sense of their own agency to either confront their bullies, or to subvert the majority power or to overcome in a round-bout way the limitations imposed on them, we allow people to feel entitled to an abstract idea of "fairness" and "justice" which never existed in American society. And we end up with one hand, "diversity HR Managers," "social justice campaigners" who resort to the ideals of civil rights to rally people, but are actually oppressing people by feeding them a false sense of moral superiority. On the other hand, the "banally evil" professionals who pay lip service to "go along with it" but actually just operates business as usual.

Instead of acting "shocked" and "indignant" every time about racism, we should openly acknowledge it in ourselves and concede that it'll never go away. I believe ironically, the benefit of not suppressing that speech and shaming sites such as Stormfront will help the discriminated people to find power in themselves to overcome than the other way around ("white lady" going into the hood for Teach for America to rescue all the poor inner city kids).

Re: The Data of Hate

#23
post #6

A shame he didn't go deeper. The analysis here is very superficial, basically consisting of him browsing the forum for a while and doing some number crunching on profile data. A bit disappointing for a NYT article, even if it is just on their website. It would have been much nicer if he did a proper data analysis of forum posts. If we've ruled out social economic class and education, what big factor remains? I suppos…

> If we could locate the source of these ideas, perhaps there could be a way of battling it.

That is interesting. It would be nice if there was a source for these ideas (well besides human nature) and if it was curable. We want to think these people a basically good but sick. Something happened to them and they became like this. If we could only prevent or even undo that.

Could it be for example that by default people are racist and will automatically dislike others from different groups (social, religious, national, intellectual, professional).

Hate of "others" is used for group cohesiveness.

Maybe it isn't them that are "abnormal" but us, who maintain that we don't have these beliefs, biases and stereotypes (at least rationally). Wouldn't that be scary...

Historically and geographically maybe instead of a sea of tolerance with island of hatred, it is the other way around. A sea of hatred and division with islands of tolerance.

It is also interesting that we often attribute craziness to these people. I do it all the time. They are mentally sick, they are hallucinating etc etc. But if you read manifestos of killers and how these people behave towards each other, how they function in real life, you might find they are are disturbingly "normal". That that is really disturbing to me at least.

Re: The Data of Hate

#24
post #20
post #6

A shame he didn't go deeper. The analysis here is very superficial, basically consisting of him browsing the forum for a while and doing some number crunching on profile data. A bit disappointing for a NYT article, even if it is just on their website. It would have been much nicer if he did a proper data analysis of forum posts. If we've ruled out social economic class and education, what big factor remains? I suppos…

Hey, thanks for comment. I'm a bit skeptical of the whole linguistic analysis thing, for various reasons. But I could be convinced otherwise (Also this would bias the analysis away from people who just register and lurk) ... Another thing I looked at was Facebook profiles. But this part was cut due to space. Here's what I found: Not surprisingly, most Stormfront users do not want to announce their white nationalism t…

"Why do some people feel this way?...And I can honestly offer the following answer: I have no idea."

Do you actually not know? Or are you asking rhetorically? The reasons seem pretty obvious to me, not sure why they would be hard to figure out.

Re: The Data of Hate

#25
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read comment below. A paper showing supremacists in the 1920's were more likely to be educated (not intelligent, educated, which makes sense... the KKK was a prominent social organization in some parts of the country at that time and the locally wealthy and movers and shakers who could afford education belonged.) This doesn't tell us much about the intelligence of supremacists today. I am still guessing supremacists…

You know, I think there is an instinct to think of people in these sorts of groups not simply as members of a hate-group, but wholly monstrous, and stupid, and things like that. It seems to be comforting to think of them like that, or (as the article also posits) to think of them as inhabiting a different world from that of you and your friends. But it's far more likely that the world is more complicated. Besides whi…

Well, I don't know that it's merely all ascribing negative traits to a group with whom people disagree.

With racism/other prejudice, in particular, it is somewhat intuitive to see a link with below-average intelligence. Much prejudice is based on ignorance, fear, and unquestioned learned behavior, all of which less-intelligent people would seem to be more susceptible. In other words, more intelligent people would seem more likely to question dogma and better able to reason through answers.

Beyond intuition, there has been at least one study which shows a correlation between low-intelligence and racism:

[1] http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/millennial-media/201304/...

EDIT: None of this is to say that there are no intelligent racists; simply that there may well be a correlation and acknowledging that possible correlation might be viewed as somewhat intuitive vs. simply a knee-jerk reaction to ascribe negative traits to those one finds disagreeable.

Re: The Data of Hate

#26
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for comment. I'm a bit skeptical of the whole linguistic analysis thing, for various reasons. But I could be convinced otherwise (Also this would bias the analysis away from people who just register and lurk) ... Another thing I looked at was Facebook profiles. But this part was cut due to space. Here's what I found: Not surprisingly, most Stormfront users do not want to announce their white nationalism t…

"Why do some people feel this way?...And I can honestly offer the following answer: I have no idea." Do you actually not know? Or are you asking rhetorically? The reasons seem pretty obvious to me, not sure why they would be hard to figure out.

i meant that i don't know what the answer is. because the obvious answers that sound really good -- diversity, education, economic development -- may not work.

Re: The Data of Hate

#27
post #23
post #6

A shame he didn't go deeper. The analysis here is very superficial, basically consisting of him browsing the forum for a while and doing some number crunching on profile data. A bit disappointing for a NYT article, even if it is just on their website. It would have been much nicer if he did a proper data analysis of forum posts. If we've ruled out social economic class and education, what big factor remains? I suppos…

> If we could locate the source of these ideas, perhaps there could be a way of battling it. That is interesting. It would be nice if there was a source for these ideas (well besides human nature) and if it was curable. We want to think these people a basically good but sick. Something happened to them and they became like this. If we could only prevent or even undo that. Could it be for example that by default peopl…

I don't think there's any innate racism, but people do tend to be hostile towards those who they see as "not of their own tribe". This view of the problem would suggest that racism is the result of people having a very narrow world-view, where they don't recognise many other people as being "like them".

This would seem to be a solvable problem. We can break down communication barriers. The internet is already transforming the world in this way, and we've already come so far in the past few decades. Surely we can keep going, until nobody lives in a small corner of the world that's isolated from the rest of us.

Re: The Data of Hate

#28

I find it really interesting that at a micro level on forums like this there is the same goodness and kindness to one another. People doing each other favors, people encouraging one another, etc. I mean, I guess it makes sense. People are essentially the same no matter what weird, dark beliefs they hold, but it just always boggles my mind that, out of some fundamental goodness and bond with their fellow human, someon…

That's very true. They don't even hate non-White people. They just don't know enough of them.

I'm non-White and was in Montana for a while. At first interaction it was obvious some people didn't even like talking to me but when I was breaking the ice and forcing some conversation they were very good people. Even interested in learning about my background.

Re: The Data of Hate

#29
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for comment. I'm a bit skeptical of the whole linguistic analysis thing, for various reasons. But I could be convinced otherwise (Also this would bias the analysis away from people who just register and lurk) ... Another thing I looked at was Facebook profiles. But this part was cut due to space. Here's what I found: Not surprisingly, most Stormfront users do not want to announce their white nationalism t…

"Why do some people feel this way?...And I can honestly offer the following answer: I have no idea." Do you actually not know? Or are you asking rhetorically? The reasons seem pretty obvious to me, not sure why they would be hard to figure out.

What are these obvious reasons?

Re: The Data of Hate

#30

I find it really interesting that at a micro level on forums like this there is the same goodness and kindness to one another. People doing each other favors, people encouraging one another, etc. I mean, I guess it makes sense. People are essentially the same no matter what weird, dark beliefs they hold, but it just always boggles my mind that, out of some fundamental goodness and bond with their fellow human, someon…

I think this is just about in-groups and out-groups. If you're reasonably liberal-minded, you probably count the human race as a large in-group. They are favoured over animals, and then even more so over plants. A lot of people probably have groups that go family > friends > group/organisation > race > human race > pets > animals > plants.

I put 'race' in here. It's a hard to define concept, and I don't necessarily agree that it exists, but don't have time for that level of discussion right now. However, it's a useful generalization. A lot of people do have a tendency to group together according to race. For most people that's probably a lot to do with familiarity and commonality though than any strong racist feelings.

The only difference with the intentionally racist groups, is where on this spectrum they consider their out-group to lie. Put in these terms, I think it's easier to conceptualize. Personally, and I don't want to get political about this, but as a vegetarian, I feel my boundary includes animals. I don't want this to sound like a holier-than-thou argument, it's hopefully an objective judgement.

I find it difficult to conceptualize including pets in the in-group, but excluding animals we use as food. It makes no sense to me, and just feels like a hard-wired level of compassion that I have. I cannot on an emotional level process the concept of desiring killing animals. But on a logical level, I can see people that do think like that, and I respect people's choices. Now in my ideal world, people would naturally want to think like me, but I have no desire to waste my time trying to convince people otherwise.

Now, if you take a view that just humans are separate from animals and that we don't have a spectrum of care towards living things around us, then it's very difficult to conceptualize racist attitudes as rational or at all fair in any way.

I'm not entirely convinced of his argument that there are not necessarily economic factors in this. I can afford to be a vegetarian, (financially, socially, etc) and I'm not in a position of desperate need, or war or any situation where I need to reconsider my position. I do know for sure though that in times of crisis, this in-group is bound to shrink.

I think the general tendency of liberal thinking to be about sharing with society as a whole, vs more right-wing tendencies to look after your own is also just about where you fall on this spectrum of care to those around you.

If you're anxious or under stress or impoverished, or in any other situation that would make you feel under attack or that you have to protect your own, then I think you are pretty likely to tighten your in-group to a smaller circle.

Post reply on HN