I am impressed by the number of votes (up and down) on this topic. A nerve was hit, obviously.
Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
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Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#62This is because many people here still vote by agreement, rather than for comments that are interesting, insightful, contradictory, terse, and so on. This happens on a much larger scale with lower-rated comments. I once saw the word "no" with a score of 50~, which made up for the contributor's running streak of -5~. It wasn't that their contribution quality became better, it was that their comment hit that major "upv…
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Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let me pose a hypothetical: I'm reading HN while I'm waiting for a particularly long compile or backup or whatever. I've got about 5 minutes and about 4 minutes in, I find a comment that honestly and eloquently makes a claim based on the perceived fact that the world is flat. This comment is highly rated. Should I: 1) Withhold my down-vote because I don't have time to explain it? 2) Withhold my down-vote unless someo…
"...eloquently makes a claim based on the perceived fact that the world is flat." You should do what feels right to you. What would I do? Probably click reply and challenge my fellow hackers with something like, "Who you gonna listen to, Galileo or Thomas Friedman?"
I agree that one should do what feels right.
FWIW, I was trying to posit a situation in which you don't have time to respond. I was using flat earth as a stand-in for a wrong statement, and oftentimes, it takes more than name-dropping Galileo to demonstrate that the writer is factually incorrect. I agree that if you have time, demonstrating the truth is the best option.
Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Thoughtful comments that are factually wrong should be downvoted." Maybe. Maybe not. But one thing's for sure. It you think something is "factually wrong", your reply provides much more feedback than a vote. I'd like to think that judgment based upon data is what separates hackers from posers. Let's see that data please.
Let me pose a hypothetical: I'm reading HN while I'm waiting for a particularly long compile or backup or whatever. I've got about 5 minutes and about 4 minutes in, I find a comment that honestly and eloquently makes a claim based on the perceived fact that the world is flat. This comment is highly rated. Should I: 1) Withhold my down-vote because I don't have time to explain it? 2) Withhold my down-vote unless someo…
I'm not totally sure, but I would say either upvote your favorite amongst the rebutting comments that will likely crop up if the incorrect post is highly rated, or stay quiet.
Here's a different hypothetical where upvoting based on agreeing opinions, rather than quality of reasoning, can be a problem. It sometimes crops up in sites with rating systems like the one we are reading right now, and it could be on any blatantly wrong, or merely not-widely-held opinion.
1) A person writes "a comment that honestly and eloquently makes a claim based on the perceived fact that the world is flat" (or any other well-reasoned claim based on an incorrect premise, or simply an opinion which is disagreed with).
2) Either because it was well reasoned or because of a number of otherwise quiet flat earth believers agreeing with it, it gets up-voted highly.
3) A few passionate replies are written to rebut the highly voted claim, but the majority of which do so caustically, without good reasoning; perhaps even name-calling.
4) In order to push forth their opinion, people who believe the earth is round up-vote the rebuttals, regardless of their quality; and the tragedy is that sometimes (often?) the rebuttal most up-voted is one that simply appeared earliest, rather than the one which rebuts most clearly.
So, I don't know what the ideal voting method would be, but voting based on quality of reasoning, not agreement, would have avoided this problem -- at least in the case of arguments.
A side note: as others have noted, the distinction between "fact" and "opinion" is, well, a matter of opinion in many cases.
Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
This hypothetical "factually wrong" dilemma is a red herring. The real issue is disagreement, not factual correction. Much more often the case is that someone has written a thoughtful, honest comment based on some worldview that is very different from your own. In that scenario you should not downvote at all. Rather, take the time to explain your own worldview or just move on.
The "factually wrong dilemma" is in no way a red herring. It's actually precisely the point I was responding to in the grandparent post. Down-voting based on opinion is something else entirely. Of course, people will confuse opinion and fact sometimes, and I would encourage people to be skeptical of themselves on delineating the two, but that doesn't invalidate the idea that people can say things that are factually w…
It's a red herring because the problem that the OP is trying to get at is not about factually incorrect comments. The important message is that you shouldn't downvote comments you disagree with, and instead we're nitpicking about how to be the fact police.
Maybe it's because we already agree on the main point, and are just trying to settle the finer points?
Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Groupthink is a silly thing. Besides, if your comment gets downvoted, it becomes gray and much harder to read. It's unfortunate if thoughtful comments get "hidden" by downvotes.
I usually check out grayed out comments on the posts I read; I have yet to see one that was "thoughtful". Maybe on posts I don't bother to read, because the topic doesn't particularly interest me, there are lots of thoughtful comments downvoted, but I haven't seen it happening.
I often check them too, just to see if they were actually offensive, or just victims of groupthink etc.
Well, if by thoughtful comments you mean obviously intelligent, well thought-out and reasonable comments, then yes, you don't see (m)any of those downvoted.
But sometimes people downvote comments where the author has clearly put some thought into them, and tried to contribute to the conversation. Those shouldn't be grayed out just for failing to be as spectacular as some of the others. Everyone does what they can.
I do realize I'm trying to defend my own comments here too..
Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#67Does this not apply anymore? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347
I suspect most of us have seen that. I am mostly in agreement with the way pg runs this place, but in this one case, I think he's wrong. I must not be the only one, since this topic comes up every so often.
Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
This hypothetical "factually wrong" dilemma is a red herring. The real issue is disagreement, not factual correction. Much more often the case is that someone has written a thoughtful, honest comment based on some worldview that is very different from your own. In that scenario you should not downvote at all. Rather, take the time to explain your own worldview or just move on.
The "factually wrong dilemma" is in no way a red herring. It's actually precisely the point I was responding to in the grandparent post. Down-voting based on opinion is something else entirely. Of course, people will confuse opinion and fact sometimes, and I would encourage people to be skeptical of themselves on delineating the two, but that doesn't invalidate the idea that people can say things that are factually w…
To the sibling comment: yes, I agree on the main point and am just discussing a finer point, an issue that was raised by an earlier comment on this chain.
Voting based on opinion reinforces groupthink. Voting based on fact helps keep the level of discussion high.
Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#69Does this not apply anymore? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347
I suspect most of us have seen that. I am mostly in agreement with the way pg runs this place, but in this one case, I think he's wrong. I must not be the only one, since this topic comes up every so often.
Yeah, giving him the benefit of the doubt, I imagine PG meant that in a different context than I'm putting it here - I'm saying that reflexive downvoting of thought-out challenges to your opinions is impolite, and asking people to please think twice before doing it.
Re: Dear YC: Please stop downvoting thoughtful comments you disagree with.
#70I wouldn't be happy if, say, objections to an unpopular scientific theory were simply expressed by scientists down-voting and burying it. Unless the idea's completely insane or facetious, I'd want them to respond to it with a measured discussion for many reasons, one of them being that ground-breaking ideas don't always meet with widespread acceptance as soon as they're introduced. I know from personal experience that I've slowly changed my mind after hearing someone argue against my opinion, no matter how much I wanted them to shut up and accept my views!