Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism • Hacker News Board

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#61

Post by xradionut » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:29 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #23

tokenadult wrote: post #15

I had to digest after reading this article for a while. (I've also shared the link among my Facebook friends, so that they can help me digest this.) On the whole, I like the author's take that charter schools are a good idea, a good enough idea that while Texas limits the number of charter schools to 300 statewide, it is important to make sure that each charter school offers a sound curriculum. And I think the author…

Allowing home schooling is even more sick than that kind of bullshit these Texans are doing. In public schools one at least knows what the teachers are teaching. Home-schooled kids are not protected from anything ranging from creationist crap to domestic violence (you as a teacher can spot if a pupil turns up beaten every other day). Not to mention the fact that home-schooled kids are far, far behind "ordinary school…

Here's a datum to counter your odorous opinion:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1989/3/16/homeschoolers-ar...

My nieces were/are homeschooled. Unlike their peers, they aren't ignorant, pregnant and don't have to run a gauntlet of savages in the public schools in their area. In addition to getting a much better education, they are better equipped to handle modern life. From financial wellness, to physical fitness, social integration to self dependence, they are score in the top decile.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#62

Post by sophacles » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:29 PM UTC

GotAnyMegadeth wrote: post #33

bdfh42 wrote: post #16

Don't panic - I was taught all sorts of daft stuff in school - when I think back on it a staggering proportion of (say) history or geography was completely untrue. It helps in a way that some of it was so crazy it got me questioning the basis for the rest. Thats when you stop being taught stuff and start researching and learning. Not suggesting that every pupil taught creationism will respond in this way - many are p…

How do you know you have re-learned all of the stuff that you were taught wrong and not just a portion of it?

The answer is the same as if you were taught strictly the correct stuff:

Constantly learn more. Re-evaluate your knowledge in the light of new facts. Find the places where pieces don't fit and investigate further. This is the only sane and rational policy on knowledge one can have for them-self.

Heck even when teaching someone "correct" things, it is impossible to avoid this. There have to be abstractions and almost-but-not-quite generalizations. There is so much knowledge in the world that you have to build a general foundation to bootstrap better understanding. People are pattern machines, so patterns need to be presented, for easier consumption, then revised later.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#63

Post by dexen » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:29 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #37

Karunamon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the fact that home-schooled kids are far, far behind "ordinary schooled" kids in terms of knowledge. Citation badly needed.

Applying common sense should be enough. You as a parent have neither the time nor the knowledge of all the various subjects that are taught in school, not to mention a proper paedagogic/teaching education.

`Common sense' in this case is quite misleading; indeed `[a] collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen' fits this case perfectly.

For one, a quick look at Wikipedia gives list of references indicating the opposite -- homeschooled studends tend to sligtly outpeform school-schooled students [1] [2].

For another, there's been plenty of stories in press, and specifically on HN, indicating that giving students a lot of freedom in picking both subjects and methodology yields better results than highly uniform, mass schooling.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Homeschooling_and... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Test_results

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#64

Post by bdfh42 » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:29 PM UTC

GotAnyMegadeth wrote: post #33

bdfh42 wrote: post #16

Don't panic - I was taught all sorts of daft stuff in school - when I think back on it a staggering proportion of (say) history or geography was completely untrue. It helps in a way that some of it was so crazy it got me questioning the basis for the rest. Thats when you stop being taught stuff and start researching and learning. Not suggesting that every pupil taught creationism will respond in this way - many are p…

How do you know you have re-learned all of the stuff that you were taught wrong and not just a portion of it?

I don't - but I do question most things. Like in every other activity - you get a feel for things that seem untrue (and yes I recognise the potential for vast error there) and put them to one side for further thought - or just forget about them of course.

It helps that I am a developer - analytical and algorithmic thinking is a great start point. Learning some statistics helps - you can see through a lot of nonsense if you can get at the source data.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#65

Post by thejteam » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:29 PM UTC

I went to a very good public school system in Maryland. More than one math teacher taught me that while we suspect that there are an infinite number of prime numbers, we can't prove it. I found out later that there exists a relatively simple proof known to Euclid. Lots of college students honestly believe that 0.999… (repeating 9's) is NOT exactly equal to 1. My upper level analysis teacher spent an entire class period dispelling this myth. We were all taught the wrong answer by multiple public school teachers in many different districts. Now, is the teaching of creationism any worse than teaching wrong math? If public school teachers can't get cut and dried math facts right, how many are going to be able to understand the nuances between "hypothesis", "theory", "law", etc?

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#66

Post by vezzy-fnord » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:30 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #48

fennecfoxen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. Among your premises, it seems you believe that a primary, desirable function of the education system is to limit the influence parents have on their children -- in essence, to protect children from their parents' parenting, including sociocultural influences like religion (and, by extension of that influence, also politics and philosophy). ... Permit me to express a measure of doubt on a variety of levels. The o…

Indeed, yes, you hit the nail. I see certain religious beliefs, including "creationism" and "vaccinophobia" as existential threats to a free and open society.

And so the solution is to ban a very wide and viable alternative education option, while trusting the state to teach you everything?

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#67

Post by mikeash » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:30 PM UTC

bdfh42 wrote: post #16

Don't panic - I was taught all sorts of daft stuff in school - when I think back on it a staggering proportion of (say) history or geography was completely untrue. It helps in a way that some of it was so crazy it got me questioning the basis for the rest. Thats when you stop being taught stuff and start researching and learning. Not suggesting that every pupil taught creationism will respond in this way - many are p…

That's an interesting point. There's a great panic about creationism, but when you discuss e.g. the tremendous fallacy of the standard "WWII started on December 7, 1941 and was won by the United States" narrative, you generally get shrugs.

I'm not defending the teaching of creationism at all, but it might be worthwhile to look at the whole curriculum with a critical eye rather than concentrating on biology.

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#68

Post by vehementi » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:30 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #52

freehunter wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every study I've seen contradicts this common sense argument. Combined with the fact that home schooled students still must take and pass state standardized tests means the students have to be at least meeting the minimum educational requirements. I have a family member in Texas with a home schooled child. They attend group teaching sessions, sit in on other classes, and use the many reference books that are provided…

Ah, so there indeed are required standards for home schooling? I did not know that. What are the consequences of not meeting these standards?

Oh man, if your common sense has led you so deeply wrong on this, what else are you backwards about?!

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#69

Post by Karunamon » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:30 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #48

fennecfoxen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. Among your premises, it seems you believe that a primary, desirable function of the education system is to limit the influence parents have on their children -- in essence, to protect children from their parents' parenting, including sociocultural influences like religion (and, by extension of that influence, also politics and philosophy). ... Permit me to express a measure of doubt on a variety of levels. The o…

Indeed, yes, you hit the nail. I see certain religious beliefs, including "creationism" and "vaccinophobia" as existential threats to a free and open society.

..how on earth do you figure creationism is a threat to an open society?

Re: Texas Public Schools Are Teaching Creationism

#70

Post by freehunter » Thu, Jan 16, 2014, 4:30 PM UTC

sergiotapia wrote: post #40

Karunamon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the fact that home-schooled kids are far, far behind "ordinary schooled" kids in terms of knowledge. Citation badly needed.

I've never really met a "normal" home schooled person. Either they are incredibly naive, or really odd, or behave strange when in a group. There are certain things you pick when you go to school, just by being among other people.

How would you know if you met a normal home schooled person? Wouldn't they just seem like a normal person? Do you ask everyone where they went to school?

For the record, I've seen a lot more naive, odd, or strange people who did go to public school.