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How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

cnn.com

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Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#61

Post by melling »

aestra wrote: post #51
melling wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific? What minor crimes are you talking about? What's the breakdown of crimes for the the current prison population? Have any references to articles that have a deeper discussion so we can come up to speed?

It is well know the US has the highest rate of incarceration in the world. Both per capita and by sheer numbers. All the breakdown you can ever ask for is here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta... This part is what people are usually talking about: Violent crime was not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States from 1980 to 2003. Violent crime rate…

Burglary, and theft in general, is a non-violent crime. If you're caught 3 times for that, shouldn't the punishment be more severe? Similarly, selling heroin is a non-violent crime. It would be helpful to see a more detailed breakdown on the effects of the "war on crime."

By the way, I understand that the "three strikes" laws have had some unintended consequences and should be revisited.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#62

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

brazzy wrote: post #33
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There appears to be no shortage of evidence that Ken Anderson is a criminal. "The State Bar’s Commission for Lawyer Discipline wrote in its court filing that Anderson knew of the evidence and withheld it. The filing also alleges that Anderson made a false statement to the court when he told the judge he had no evidence that could be favorable to Morton’s claims of innocence." [1] [1] http://www.texastribune.org/2012/…

I'm sure that those who lynched some black dude whenever a white woman was murdered in the 1900s South also often sincerely believed there was no shortage of evidence. The problem is that people let outrage over the seriousness of the crime guide both their evaluation of evidence and demand for punishment. Their want their offended sense of justice to be assuaged, but this leads to greater and greater injustice, as p…

I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring race into this. I'll concede to you that some people in the South are racist. I never said otherwise. Nor have I or anyone else that I've noticed ITT suggested that lynch-mob style justice is what Ken Anderson deserves. What people have said is that Ken Anderson's crimes are serious, and deserving of more than it appears he will get. To use a prosecutor's rhetoric, a deterrent is needed.

I think what they (some people from the South) believe is that police, prosecutors, and judges are well-meaning professionals and that they conduct their duty with the intention to "do what is right" and with some degree of professionalism.

When a random citizen calls for the death penalty for some accused individual, they are always doing so with the caveat that the accused is actually guilty of the crime. They are saying "baby raping murders need to die" not necessarily that "smelly bums need to get framed up" or in the case of Morton "innocent fathers". What person (besides policemen and prosecutors) wants an innocent man convicted?

The problem is not human nature (well, maybe it is, but that's not a problem we can reliably solve). The problem is that prosecutors, judges, and cops are themselves human, and that there is little to safeguard us all from their mistakes, and even worse, they are incentive-ized to make these types of mistakes.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#63

Post by brianbreslin »

melling wrote: post #50
girvo wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, if you've got the highest per capita incarceration rate in the entire world, and is nearly 7X that of countries that are other first-world democracies (Canada, Australia, etc)... something tells me there is an issue, somewhere.

That in itself doesn't mean that we have a problem. Maybe we are better at catching criminals? Maybe we have more criminals? I'm trying to go through what little material that has been provided here. Here's one example as to why we have a higher rate. We have longer sentencing. Do you think we should reduce the length of our sentences for burglary, for instance? "To give an example, the average burglary sentence in t…

well someone caught with a tiny amount of crack cocaine is sentenced to (I'm paraphrasing since I am on my phone, don't have the stats) like 90 days vs 30 for cocaine. Alternatively I think there should be more emphasis on rehab. Real rehabilitation programs, mandatory drug rehab for even first time drug offenders perhaps.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#64

Post by shin_lao »

girvo wrote: post #2

The prosecutor should serve at least 25 years in jail for withholding key evidence and ruining this persons life. Christ these stories make me so upset. :/

10 years in prison is a lot for a non-violent crime. He might have withheld evidence but in the end it's the jury who found him guilty.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#65

Post by girvo »

brazzy wrote: post #57
girvo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that happens. This is really not that case. The prosecutors actions lead to someone else getting killed. These are known facts, and not really up for debate. More to the point, without consequences for their actions, prosecutors have an incentive to do this stuff.

Then that incentive should perhaps be removed rather than trying to add a negative incentive to prevent its abuse. There should be a better way to choose prosecutors for promotion than winning high-profile trials.

I agree with you. The problem is, that is something that will take a massive coordinated effort and systemic change, and frankly will have huge push-back by the prosecutors themselves (everyone likes easy actionable metrics)... It also assumes that all prosecutors are good, which we can never assume of everyone in a profession.

So, I think both tactics are required.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#66

Post by girvo »

shin_lao wrote: post #64
girvo wrote: post #2

The prosecutor should serve at least 25 years in jail for withholding key evidence and ruining this persons life. Christ these stories make me so upset. :/

10 years in prison is a lot for a non-violent crime. He might have withheld evidence but in the end it's the jury who found him guilty.

The prosecutor got 10 days? Unless I'm reading your comment incorrectly.

The jury system cannot handle them being liable for imprisoning the wrong people, unfortunately. That's why we have all these rules in place in our legal system. The prosecutor was the one who made the decision to willingly withhold important evidence and lie to the jury to get the conviction, so I personally think he is culpable.

Oh, and by doing so, the actual killer went free, and murdered someone else. :(

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#67

Post by scrumper »

shin_lao wrote: post #64
girvo wrote: post #2

The prosecutor should serve at least 25 years in jail for withholding key evidence and ruining this persons life. Christ these stories make me so upset. :/

10 years in prison is a lot for a non-violent crime. He might have withheld evidence but in the end it's the jury who found him guilty.

10 days.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#68

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

brazzy wrote: post #57
girvo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that happens. This is really not that case. The prosecutors actions lead to someone else getting killed. These are known facts, and not really up for debate. More to the point, without consequences for their actions, prosecutors have an incentive to do this stuff.

Then that incentive should perhaps be removed rather than trying to add a negative incentive to prevent its abuse. There should be a better way to choose prosecutors for promotion than winning high-profile trials.

I agree; but our criminal justice system operates on the theory of deterrence. I find it particularly ironic that you speak up in defense of a prosecutor who builds a career based upon his (unjust) application of deterrence.

Aside from an interest in Justice, why would anyone defend Ken Anderson's behavior? Convicting innocent people of crimes is only in the interests of prosecutors and criminals. Conversely, every citizen is at risk from malicious wrongful prosecution.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#69

Post by wavefunction »

brazzy wrote: post #27
wavefunction wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the equivalency. The prosecutor abused his official position and the legal system to personally advance his career. If anything, we should hold our officials and authorities to even harsher standards to ensure equitable treatment under the law.

You are certain, after reading some newspaper articles, that Ken Anderson abused his position for personal gain, and the most important thing to you is that he be punished more severely. Your slogan: "an eye for an eye". Other people were certain, after reading some newspaper articles, that Michael Morton murdered his wife because she would not submit to him sexually, and the most important thing to them was that he…

I am certain and I do not see the equivalency. This news story is local to me and is one of many examples of innocent individuals in Texas that have been railroaded by the "authorities" here.

In prison, Morton had to put up with forced manual labor, filthy and inhumane conditions, fight off a rapist, and lose 25 years of his life.

Anderson had to do 5 days in jail and pay a $500 fine. He should be drug behind a vehicle for several miles or until the tow rope falls off. I understand that sounds extreme, but those most powerful among us with the power to destroy whole lives on a whim should face the full brutality of society.

Re: How inmate Michael Morton lost 25 years of his life

#70

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

shin_lao wrote: post #64
girvo wrote: post #2

The prosecutor should serve at least 25 years in jail for withholding key evidence and ruining this persons life. Christ these stories make me so upset. :/

10 years in prison is a lot for a non-violent crime. He might have withheld evidence but in the end it's the jury who found him guilty.

A non-violent crime? Are you kidding? If you were kidnapped and imprisoned by an entity other than the State, would that be a violent crime? False imprisonment is a violent crime.

>He might have withheld evidence but in the end it's the jury who found him guilty.

You need to seriously rethink that statement. How could a jury be expected reach a correct solution when exculpatory evidence was hidden from them?

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