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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#61

Post by Tichy »

x0054 wrote: post #41

Here is an interesting idea that I had reading this. As a startup, what if you were to create a simple computer language that looked different from most other computer languages, at least somewhat different. Alternatively, just use one of the many really obscure programming languages out there, just make sure the applicant does not know it ahead of time. Give the applicant a 10-20 page reference manual for the langua…

Hm, maybe if I ever have to hire somebody I'll challenge them to a Corewar duel :-)

Before the internet my friends and I sometimes used to get to together, everybody got some time to write a Corewar warrior on paper, and then we'd watch the tournament together. It was great fun.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#62

Post by Xylakant »

auggierose wrote: post #56
Xylakant wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you don't get my point: I expect a domain expert to be a domain expert, but I don't expect a trainee to know anything and I'll structure my interview accordingly. I'll ask the domain expert questions about his domain. But I don't expect a domain expert to know the programming language that we work with just because he's a domain expert. And seriously, I'll prefer the eager-to-learn math graduate with little c…

I also think that there might be a mismatch between hiring process and expectations. When you say "But if I have a couple of weeks more" then you obviously underestimate the time it takes to learn if we are actually talking about somebody without much programming experience. Try "if I have a couple of years more".

See, there's so much more that you need to learn when you start on a project in a company. There's the framework they use, their libraries, the requirements for the project, the problem domain, the people you work with, the process they use, ... just to list the few that come to the top my head. Especially learning the problem domain can be very hard and challenging to programmers with little or no knowledge of the field. It can easily take a couple of month, if not years to become reasonably proficient.

So yes, "a couple of weeks" is certainly not enough to transform a graduate into a project lead for bespoke iOS project, but it could easily be enough to transform a decent java programmer with solid project lead experience. Transforming a crack Objective C Programmer with no lead experience can take easily as much time, if not more.

My gist is that programming knowledge will only get you so far and depending on what position you're hiring for other experience combined with the ability and willingness to learn may be much more interesting. And whatever I do, I tend to hire for that trait since that allows people to pick up other abilities when required.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#63

Post by dagw »

nagrom wrote: post #30
morgante wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start with a simple interview which simply checks that the person (a) has a brain; (b) is somebody you're comfortable working with. Then do a short-term contracting gig (maybe just 1 day). If it works well, hire them. Edit: clarify length which even the best people could do.

Generally speaking, high quality people won't take a short-term contracting gig. They are probably working elsewhere and don't need that level of uncertainty; they're looking for something better , not just anything.

Generally speaking, most programming position don't need to be filled by high quality people. There are lots of smart, reasonably competent programmers out there, but who don't have years of experience on their CV, whom are eager to learn and would happily take a day or two off for a chance to work at an interesting company.

Truly high quality people are generally known by their reputation and are headhunted rather than expected to answer job ads.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#64

Post by kenster07 »

Xylakant wrote: post #47
kenster07 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is that people who enjoy programming probably tend to be smart. I haven't done any statistical surveys, but the motivational feedback loop for learning programming rewards intelligence.

I doubt that. There's a lot of people going into programming because they think a) IT is akin to playing computer games all day. b) It's easy work in a climatized office with solid pay c) The jobs are relatively secure and abundant. I've seen many people go into IT that would much better have been employed elsewhere, so I think that we, as programmers are not more intelligent on average than the rest of the populatio…

You have a point. Sometimes, I forget that there are actually people out there who pursue careers where they know they won't enjoy the journey.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#65

Post by kenster07 »

Mgccl wrote: post #57
kenster07 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is that people who enjoy programming probably tend to be smart. I haven't done any statistical surveys, but the motivational feedback loop for learning programming rewards intelligence.

I haven't done any statistical surveys, in my undergrad years, I find math students are much smarter than the cs majors.

*presuming that you went to an undergraduate institution where the variance in student intelligence is large enough to detect an appreciable difference between the avg intelligence in these two majors.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#66

Post by progx »

Because they don't know you, you don't have a well known name, they don't know what you can and if it is true.

E.g. if somebody hire John Carmack (ID Software), nobody will let him do some math test or ask him trivial programming questions.

But you are not John Carmack ;-)

It is like in every other job: if you are not a rockstar you are nobody.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#67

Post by cromulent »

morgante wrote: post #17
deluxaran wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other? These tests are kinda old and don't prove anything besides the fact that the person has a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't mean they can code.

> What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other? Both. They're not perfect, but I'm going to be picky and look for people who can generally reason well (both mathematically and verbally). > but that doesn't mean they can code. That's why you pair it with work samples. The ideal hire would be an impressive GitHub + evidence of intellect. The GitHub shows they have coding chops, while an IQ test usually means t…

Smart & Gets Things Done, as Joel Spolsky would say.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing...

http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Gets-Things-Done-Technical/dp/15...

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#68

Post by mariozivic »

morgante wrote: post #53
robryan wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if all your most relevant work is owned by previous employers? Restricting hires to people with decent personal projects and/ or extensive open source contributions isn't ideal either.

I'm fine with only hiring people who have done some work outside their workplace. If they're really great at programming, they have the drive to try new things outside work. Indeed, a couple good personal projects is probably the best predictor of skill you could find. (Skill and interest tend to be highly correlated.)

I've heard one too many times that I have to react now and voice my confusion. When you have students and you want then to have had some work done outside of coursework, I'm perfectly ok with that as I understand the merits but I wonder is it true for people 10+ years into their career. I see great people having great jobs who, if they have free time, code something that can help their current job but that code also ends up being own by the employer and is very rarely released as open source.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#69

Post by uniclaude »

jph wrote: post #9

> Breadth-first search from both ends. I believe this is deeply valuable. For some roles, I would much prefer to hire someone who can quickly see the value of breadth-first search from both ends. If he/she doesn't happen to know the syntax of Ruby, or Java, etc. it's less important to me.

This is great. Now what would you do if after three months, your new hire can still not ship code that benefits your business? Fire the person? Keep teaching?

I also believe algorithmic knowledge is important, and tend to give algorithm questions to my candidates, but it matters more for those who will write databases and game engines than for those who will write CRUD apps.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#70

Post by jacobgreenleaf »

morgante wrote: post #54
bradleyjg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? It's illigal. Or at least very very legally questionable.[1] Theoretically good proxies could be attacked in the same way, but there's a difference between doing something that could conceivably be the basis of a lawsuit and doing something that the Supreme Court has specifically ruled on. [1] See Griggs v. Duke Power Co. (1971) http://finduslaw.com/griggs-v-du…

I meant that mostly rhetorically in that I think that was a poor decision, or at least applied poorly. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you can show a high IQ is necessary for the job, isn't an IQ test acceptable?) Still, asking for SAT scores is still legal and they correlate decently with intelligence.

Actually the primary correlate of SAT scores is not intelligence but wealth.
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