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Do the right thing, wait to get fired

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Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#61

Post by hkmurakami »

georgemcbay wrote: post #32

I've worked at a couple of companies where this was a winning strategy, but I've worked at more companies where attempting this sort of thing on a regular basis will cause problems that are more complex and "worse" than being fired. At a lot of places you'll have a small group of really talented engineers who would all support the idea of doing "the right thing" even if it flies in the face of established process, an…

If you're using this strategy with the secondary purpose of determining whether the company is beyond the point of repair and that it is time to move on, then even if the employment of the strategy results in the situation you describe, it can still be used for its intended effect.

I've soon a great engineering manager get his team taken away from him after continuing to stand up for "the right way to do things" (from a technical perspective). He moved on and is at a much better place now.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#62

Post by overgard »

I wish more people would follow this philosophy. There's nothing more annoying than people that follow the letter of the law without thinking about why it was established in the first place. Most (good) companies will easily forgive breaking the rules if you're doing it for the right reasons with good results.

The point of "the rules" is to protect the company in case someone does something really stupid on their own ("oy! it was against our rules!"), but I don't think competent executives are /that/ tied to them if people break them for a good reason.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#63

Post by tracker1 »

ozataman wrote: post #42
crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

In further support of these points... Thinking outside the box, breaking the rules as a last resort to do the right thing and other similar actions can indeed produce the extraordinary results, in certain situations, the organization is hoping for after all. Yet this strategy will work only for the very top performers: Those who can sense and actually produce the truly largest "contribution" to their company (as oppo…

That is where experience comes into play.. Knowing when to replace, rewrite, refactor, or hold your nose to get something done.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#64

Post by tomjen3 »

daemin wrote: post #48
ozataman wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In further support of these points... Thinking outside the box, breaking the rules as a last resort to do the right thing and other similar actions can indeed produce the extraordinary results, in certain situations, the organization is hoping for after all. Yet this strategy will work only for the very top performers: Those who can sense and actually produce the truly largest "contribution" to their company (as oppo…

I always think that whenever a new rule or procedure gets created there should be sufficient reasoning as to why it had been created, what conditions prompted it, and what it's designed to solve. With that information people can see why something needs to be done a certain way, and additionally they will know when rules and procedures should be eliminated. In my mind this would allow people to deduce when exceptions…

Googles coding guidelines does exactly that, I imagine because they would otherwise spend too much time debating them over and over again.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#65

Post by jakobe »

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #46
crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

Never take down a fence unless you understand why it was built. OTOH Things often improve when youngsters come in and break things older folks didn't realize weren't working.

The problem is that there are no signs on the fence explaining why it is there, and the people who raised it are nowhere to be found, and the most likely reason for its existence is unreasonable paranoia.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#66

Post by jarek »

jakobe wrote: post #65
nazgulnarsil wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never take down a fence unless you understand why it was built. OTOH Things often improve when youngsters come in and break things older folks didn't realize weren't working.

The problem is that there are no signs on the fence explaining why it is there, and the people who raised it are nowhere to be found, and the most likely reason for its existence is unreasonable paranoia.

> the most likely reason for its existence is unreasonable paranoia

Spoken like someone who's never walked across a minefield ;)

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#67

Post by ryanac »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #36
crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

Exactly. I see it this way: Freeform jazz performers and poets can break all sorts of rules, because they know what the rules are so well that they know which rules make sense, which ones they can bend and which they can outright break. I would never advocate handing the keys of this philosophy to a young scrappy kid at his first job out of college. More like the seasoned veteran who's seen all sides and knows what i…

There's actually a TED talk with a group of freeform jazz performers explaining something similar to this called "There are no mistakes on the bandstand":

http://www.ted.com/talks/stefon_harris_there_are_no_mistakes...

Shows how even when you do something against the rules / on your own, you still need to remember you're part of a bigger unit.

I agree that people should know when to and how much they can break the rules and it takes experience to know that. But, I feel like you have to make mistakes to get that experience, and that there should be some room for experimentation and failure for those willing to take these risks.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#68

Post by jthol »

overgard wrote: post #62

I wish more people would follow this philosophy. There's nothing more annoying than people that follow the letter of the law without thinking about why it was established in the first place. Most (good) companies will easily forgive breaking the rules if you're doing it for the right reasons with good results. The point of "the rules" is to protect the company in case someone does something really stupid on their own…

I've always found the "letter of the law" types to be the most dangerous sort around, and that's not at all limited to programming. They're the ones who make authoritarianism work, the ones who tattle at the first sign of "not following the rules", the ones with absolutely no imagination, no curiosity, and an unwillingness to think for themselves.

If there are too many of these around or too many in your management chain you should get the hell out. But maybe that's just me.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#70

Post by k__ »

"I do the Right Thing for Google and the world, and then I sit back and wait to get fired. If I don’t get fired, I’ve done the Right Thing for everyone. "

No, you just did the right thing for Google. Because the rest of the world can't fire you.

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