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Do the right thing, wait to get fired

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Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#41

Post by afterburner »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #36
crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

Exactly. I see it this way: Freeform jazz performers and poets can break all sorts of rules, because they know what the rules are so well that they know which rules make sense, which ones they can bend and which they can outright break. I would never advocate handing the keys of this philosophy to a young scrappy kid at his first job out of college. More like the seasoned veteran who's seen all sides and knows what i…

I'm not so sure age is any indicator of principled action. Older employees have been worn down and want to get somewhere, young people can have more conviction in their principles because they have less to lose and more enthusiasm. And the opposite can happen too of course; young people can be easily misdirected, and older employees can have the learned cynicism and experience to see history repeating itself.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#42

Post by ozataman »

crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

In further support of these points... Thinking outside the box, breaking the rules as a last resort to do the right thing and other similar actions can indeed produce the extraordinary results, in certain situations, the organization is hoping for after all. Yet this strategy will work only for the very top performers: Those who can sense and actually produce the truly largest "contribution" to their company (as opposed to what seems right, interesting or cool to them), even when it more or less eludes their higher ups; those who can do this while also being politically savvy enough to contain the consequences and sell their actions as actually in line with everyone's goals; those who are almost magical in being able to produce the kind of results others are very unlikely to do etc. It can work, I've seen it work, but I think it is important to realize that not everyone can or should do it. When it works, it is certainly a great boon to the career of the said top performer.

Know that by doing this, you may be counterproductive both to your organization and your career. If you take it to the extreme, you may become a friction rather than a "problem solver".

The most common pitfall I've seen is a highly technical person considering things like "refactoring", "getting it right" more important than getting to the finish line fast. Remember that you may be missing what's really the most important thing for your company at the time.

I've also seen commonplace "complaining" about inconveniences that are actually quite legitimate. It's just that you don't know all the facts or haven't been put in a position to produce the bottom-line results. Things look different when you're the one navigating the ship.

OTOH, I've seen this strategy work best when the very formal scope/objectives/deliverables of an effort are clearly wrong and would indeed lead to a subpar outcome for all involved. Implemented successfully, this strategy could produce outstanding results by forcefully course-correcting and then actually delivering great results. Remember though that you'll be blamed for everything if your course-correction isn't great, even if the original direction would also have been equally bad.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#43

Post by zecho »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #36
crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

Exactly. I see it this way: Freeform jazz performers and poets can break all sorts of rules, because they know what the rules are so well that they know which rules make sense, which ones they can bend and which they can outright break. I would never advocate handing the keys of this philosophy to a young scrappy kid at his first job out of college. More like the seasoned veteran who's seen all sides and knows what i…

As a veteran at my company, I've let scrappy kids take the keys. It's always about them understanding the general direction we're going. I trust their judgement and their fearlessness to ask questions of those of us who've been around much longer.

Which actually fits into the jazz analogy. Jazz players work together in the same direction, there are rules within the rule breaking, even if they're unspoken.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#45

Post by gaelenh »

I follow a similar strategy when I'm interviewing for a job. I play it a little loose and speak freely. If they don't have the good sense to realize that questions about my resume or github code are more important than white boarding and programming riddles, then I don't want work for or with them. When I'm interviewing to hire someone, I reverse the situation and try to get them to loosen up. The interview process is a window into company culture.

Same goes when I'm setting up partnerships for STEAM classes with schools. Schools can be strict with their staff and their students. I don't ever want to put forward a persona that suggest I will also be strict or by the book because that will never work out. No one will be happy.

I suppose if I can't ever find a job and no one will let me teach, it's time to re-examine my personality. Until then, no reason to keep my disregard for bureaucratic norms and fake corporate civility a secret.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#46

Post by nazgulnarsil »

crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

Never take down a fence unless you understand why it was built.

OTOH

Things often improve when youngsters come in and break things older folks didn't realize weren't working.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#47

Post by snowwrestler »

In general, rules are for under to average performers--to keep them from causing harm. If you're a true expert, you can break the rules in your areas of expertise to get a good result.

If you break the rules and get a worse result...probably you weren't actually the expert you thought you were. So practice some humble introspection before breaking all the rules.

NOTE 1: A "good result" can include a failed experiment, if you learn something and the failure mode is predicted and mitigated. Surprise disasters are always bad though.

NOTE 2: I said "in your areas of expertise." Being a top engineer does not mean that you can break other rules like expense reports or sexual harassment. Too many people make that mistake.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#48

Post by daemin »

ozataman wrote: post #42
crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

In further support of these points... Thinking outside the box, breaking the rules as a last resort to do the right thing and other similar actions can indeed produce the extraordinary results, in certain situations, the organization is hoping for after all. Yet this strategy will work only for the very top performers: Those who can sense and actually produce the truly largest "contribution" to their company (as oppo…

I always think that whenever a new rule or procedure gets created there should be sufficient reasoning as to why it had been created, what conditions prompted it, and what it's designed to solve.

With that information people can see why something needs to be done a certain way, and additionally they will know when rules and procedures should be eliminated. In my mind this would allow people to deduce when exceptions to the rules are applicable, and hence be more effective.

Unfortunately I have not actually seen this happen in real life.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#49

Post by asafira »

crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

Awesome post. It's great to see a top comment on HN that isn't hugely disagreeing with the article in a (perhaps borderline) disrespectful way.

Furthermore, I agree that often times the best way to go about doing things is being reasonable with people, but it's also just _hard_ to do. You're human, and sometimes you might lose it for a dumb reason --- just fall back, understand what you could have done better, and learn from the experience.

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