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Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

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Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#61
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flagged. Lets keep xenophobic comments off HN. [Edit: s/racist/xenophobic as per conversation below]

It's interesting you assume he was being racist, rather than culturalist. I think it's equally valid to assume he was talking about mainland Chinese business culture. Is it controversial to say that mainland Chinese companies (as we're talking about here) commonly steal or clone business plans?

That's equally unacceptable, saying "mexicans are lazy" is as bad as saying "hispanics are lazy". It's just xenophobia.

The OP wasn't starting a conversation about business practices, they were attempting to make a witty one-liner by denigrating a group of people and reinforcing a negative stereotype. They were implying that Chinese people don't need to be educated because they do unimportant work.

Imagine if someone had said that it didn't matter if women or blacks cheated in exams because all they did was housework and unskilled labour ? - that's exactly the same as what the OP is doing here.

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#62
Stories likes this make life worth living! It's got irony, farce, class struggle, crushed dreams - everything human existence is made of.

I actually have a lot to say about it, but this great Baffler piece, Adam Wheeler Went to Harvard, says it best: http://thebaffler.com/past/adam_wheeler_went_to_harvard.

Then, I would add a snippet from this Thomas Frank article[1] in Harper's:

After all, what universities were selling then, and what they are selling today, is an extremely valuable commodity: entry into what sociologists call the professional managerial class. There’s a reason that Lexus LX 570 that almost ran you down in the crosswalk the other day had a harvard sticker neatly centered on its rear window. And it isn’t because the driver believes we would all profit from immersing ourselves in theories of intersectionality, or because of a lifelong attachment to Crimson field hockey. That sticker is there because Harvard is a crucial part of who that SUV driver is. A college degree from a prestigious school is the credential that matters most in American life, and growing college-enrollment figures suggest that an increasing number of Americans have figured this out.

[1]: http://harpers.org/archive/2012/06/the-price-of-admission/ (subscribers only)

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#63
post #6
post #2

This is going to take a long time to change for the better. My Chinese friends who don't cheat because they actually want to learn stuff definitely complain a lot about the rampant cheating. If you want to get into and finish Uni completely legit, you have to work way, way harder than everyone else :\ And you will end up doing worse than people who cheated and got away with it, just have to suck it up. There's a lot…

Wow. You realize that this world where people care enough about school to put in that much effort is /completely foreign/ to me, right? Personally, I think the school system I came from, where nobody cares is in bigger trouble than the system where cheating is endemic.

They still don't care about school. They care about not being weeded from the pile of resumes because they didn't have "the right grade" - which they got by a pantomime that superficially resembled school.

As a system it's highly optimized to select candidates who'll "go along to get along".

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression that these people are fighting for the right to have more decent lives and better schools. If so, organized cheating is a cost of the unequal system they live under. Reminds me of Basho's chief architect (the Riak company), who advised at Ricon's closing keynote that you should lie and misrepresent yourself to anyplace doing interesting things, as he did at Apple (where he got to write a distribu…

> Once in "the real world", we discover that corporations and governments routinely lie, cheat and steal. Really? I'm not sure I've experience of this. Might be a geographic/cultural thing, I guess, but business and governance in the UK doesn't seem to be particularly corrupt.

"business and governance in the UK doesn't seem to be particularly corrupt"

You should read up on the City of London Corporation.[1][2][3][4]

[1] - http://www.vanityfair.com/society/2013/04/mysterious-residen...

[2] - http://streebgreebling.blogspot.com/2011/04/state-within-sta...

[3] - http://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2011/02/london-corporati...

[4] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#65
Instead of calling it cheating, whynot describe objectively what they are doing and let us judge ourselves whether it's cheating? This article makes it sound obvious that everyone is using cell phones or other devices to communicate with people outside or with each other, but for all we know that was a single occurrence out of thousands of students. Too often articles like these turn out to tell only one side of the story, and I don't like it. It sounds too crazy that all Chinese students think cheating is fair; heck, it wouldn't be called cheating by them if they thought it was!

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#66
In the usual pre-exam instructions this year at university (in the UK) the invigilators made specific reference to network enabled watches as a prohibited item - I have a Pebble, as do a few of my friends, but not many students do in general.

One interesting thing I've noticed is with assignments we have strict anti-plagiarism checks which always seem to be emphasised for foreign students. We have quite a few students from China and India on our courses and it's almost like it's a special mention for them. Several times lecturers have made reference to different cultures having an expectation of plagiarism, and I've spoken to academics who say it is a very common thing from foreign students.

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#67
post #23

"We want fairness. There is no fairness if you do not let us cheat." I can't imagine how people can say it out their mouth. Just like when someone kill, due to fairness you kill too. I am a Chinese, and I feel shame on this kind of Chinese logic. They use wording like fairness, human right not seek for proper, but their benefit, I have see too much ridiculous in my homeland.

Well, I'm not Chinese, but I think they're right. Fairness requires impartiality, and they're being discriminated against. The solution should be to implement the anti-cheating measures everywhere, not just in a few schools.

They want the schools allow them to cheat instead of fight for anti cheating system that's the most ridiculous point

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#68
post #10

Cargo Cult Education - Schools are built, students attend, teachers lecture, assignments turned in, tests taken and degrees granted. Everyone gets what they want: politicians, students, staff and parents. Yet nothing needs to be taught and nothing needs to be learned. Doesn't this go on a lot more often then we want to admit?

I'm a spring 2013 undergraduate in CS, and this goes on in America just as it does in China. (the entire process is a charade.) I will admit it without hesitation. It's incredibly interesting that not a single party in the process sees actual knowledge as the value gained. Everyone sees the piece of paper as the value: the box that's checked. How long can such an illusion continue? Your guess is as good as mine. At t…

Maybe it's different here in the UK, or maybe I'm naïve.

With my A-Levels (end of high-school exams) I felt like I was learning material that I would need to know for my university course, and my university entrance was conditional on the grades I achieved.

Having been at uni for 3 years now, it has confirmed this for me. I had friends in high-school who didn't study maths, and they wouldn't have managed the CS course at my university. I wouldn't have managed it without the A-Level grades I got (or slightly below them).

I also think that my degree matters quite a lot. To me it's a piece of paper that says I have a reasonable competency in computer science, and anyone who has a brief look at the syllabus should see that I will be of a certain level of ability.

It is possible to self-teach yourself much of computer science, but when I talk to other people of a similar age to me who have self-taught and not gone to university, I don't want to come across as cocky, but the gap in knowledge appears very significant to me. After 5 years working I'm sure my degree won't matter much, but I think it will give me a big head start on knowledge and understanding.

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once in "the real world", we discover that corporations and governments routinely lie, cheat and steal. Really? I'm not sure I've experience of this. Might be a geographic/cultural thing, I guess, but business and governance in the UK doesn't seem to be particularly corrupt.

You live in a high trust society with an impartial and competent state, where the rule of law is a real thing and opportunities for real, lucrative corruption are relatively limited. Given the demographics of this website there is an above average chance you work in an industry or sector that is dominated by literal minded men that tend more autistic than the general population, and associate mainly with people who a…

> I have also heard good things about Ashok Rao's Psychopaths, Losers, Clueless series.

That would be Venkat Rao's Sociopaths, Losers, Clueless series.

Re: Chinese students and families fight for the right to cheat their exams

#70

If everyone cheats and they construct a pilot enforcement program that focuses on .1 percent of the population, of course it's unfair. The real solution is to drop the cheatable system altogether. You aren't going to fix universal corruption with baby steps.

Cheating is not endemic within the gaokao system because, as a testing regime, it's excessively vulnerable to cheating. It's not any more cheatable than the SAT, GREs, or other standardized entrance or aptitude exams.

Mainland Chinese society at all levels is thoroughly corrupt and its pretty much impossible to achieve what a reasonable observer would recognize as a materially successful life within the PRC without being actively involved in corruption.

Even simply to muddle along and live hand-to-mouth, content to have most of the doors to success either closed to them from the get-go or slammed in their face, a regular Mainland person has to turn a blind eye to a steady stream of illegal, unethical, and downright harmful behavior on the part of their peers.

That's a part of why (along with many other factors) many Mainland citizens are eager to emigrate to pretty much anywhere that's not the PRC.

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