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The Paradox of the Proof

projectwordsworth.com

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Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#61
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also making claims about typical mathematicians and attempting to apply them to those already determined to be atypical is a bit dodgy in and of itself. Perelman was not your typical mathematician and he behaved atypically as well. I'm not certain but I don't think he travelled and lectured on his proof of the Poincaré Conjecture. He even turned down a sizable award size. Just because an atypical scientist behaves at…

Perelman did lecture on his proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman#Verification

Thanks. Didn't have the chance to check this morning.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#62

This is a great article. The writer has obviously spent a lot of time speaking to Mochizuki’s colleagues, and has explained the whole strange situation in a way that is layman-friendly without being wrong. It’s interesting that it’s part of an experiment in donation-funded journalism: I was sufficiently impressed that I donated a few dollars, but I fear that is not likely to be a common enough response to be a viable…

I couldn't agree more - this is a great article on a complex topic. It's hands down the best article I've read in months and I also donated. It gives me hope that quality can thrive on the internet.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#63
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also making claims about typical mathematicians and attempting to apply them to those already determined to be atypical is a bit dodgy in and of itself. Perelman was not your typical mathematician and he behaved atypically as well. I'm not certain but I don't think he travelled and lectured on his proof of the Poincaré Conjecture. He even turned down a sizable award size. Just because an atypical scientist behaves at…

I'm far from claiming that the proof is invalid based on my feelings on the subject. My only issue is that in the article, and in other writing on the subject, nobody is even contemplating the possibility that Mochizuki's work might be unreadable for reasons other than it being too brilliant to grasp. I wanted to present an alternative possibility which seems to be disregarded at the moment in favor of the attractive…

I must have read the article differently from you. I sensed there was a positive attitude towards him, but I didn't feel they were trying to say he had proven the theorem or was so brilliant no one else could grasp it. On the contrary, it seemed like they were saying "This person has been brilliant for quite some time, but this 'proof' seems entirely nonsensical even to the experts in the field."

So to me, that read more as, this is a curiosity that has a deep and interesting past and an even more interesting present.

> I wanted to present an alternative possibility which seems to be disregarded at the moment

That is entirely fair and valid. I just misread your comment as more along the lines of "Does no one else see how obvious it is that this guy is crazy?!" My fault.

> On the topic of Perelman

Yes I was already corrected. I couldn't remember with certainty whether he did or didn't. I thought he had, but then what I remembered about his personality made me reconsider that.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#64
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also making claims about typical mathematicians and attempting to apply them to those already determined to be atypical is a bit dodgy in and of itself. Perelman was not your typical mathematician and he behaved atypically as well. I'm not certain but I don't think he travelled and lectured on his proof of the Poincaré Conjecture. He even turned down a sizable award size. Just because an atypical scientist behaves at…

I'm far from claiming that the proof is invalid based on my feelings on the subject. My only issue is that in the article, and in other writing on the subject, nobody is even contemplating the possibility that Mochizuki's work might be unreadable for reasons other than it being too brilliant to grasp. I wanted to present an alternative possibility which seems to be disregarded at the moment in favor of the attractive…

A lot of professional mathematicians are considering the idea that it might all be nonsense. Popular writing on anything technical is not always representative of what's actually going on behind the scenes.

At the same time, it's important to check the work rather than just dismissing it. Mochizuki's work isn't totally original - a lot of it is derived from existing theory. So it should be possible to validate it despite the complexity.

It's true that serious breakthroughs from individuals working alone are rare, but they are not unheard of. The real test is whether or not this work can be adapted to the rest of mathematics (or the other way around, perhaps).

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#65
post #3

I think this points out the necessity to develop better proof assistant systems [1], in particular for automated proof checking [2]. However, I have never interacted with such systems and thus don't know whether it will be possible to just feed Mochizuki's formidable constructions into it. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_assistant [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_proof_checking

Don't forget that you would need to put not just Mochizuki's work into a proof checker, but also everything that it depends on. From what I understand, this is far too much work to be feasible with currently available proof checkers and changing that would require more than incremental improvements.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#67

If a programmer locked himself away for 14 years and then emerged and announced he'd written a completely bug free OS, there would be skepticism. Code needs to be battle tested by other people to find the bugs. Mathematics is the same, to an extent; one guy working alone for 14 years is likely to have missed ideas and perspectives that could illuminate flaws in his reasoning. Maths bugs. If he's produced hundreds of…

Something like this? http://www.templeos.org/

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#68
post #2

I actually read the whole article word-to-word. May be this personality of Shinichi Mochizuki appeals to me or may be i find maths more interesting than i admit. But i dont know which. Also, i find it quite surprising that the proof for problems in domains as elementary as number theory, should have to be so complex, sort of baffles me. I hope i can rise up to the level to begin to understand this lingo or that someo…

> Also, i find it quite surprising that the proof for problems in domains as elementary as number theory, should have to be so complex, sort of baffles me.

One reason for this is that primes are defined by their multiplicative properties. There aren't many easy connections between primes and the additive properties of numbers, and so proofs that try to relate additive things to primes tend to involve deep and complicated things.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#69
post #26

"For centuries, mathematicians have strived towards a single goal: to understand how the universe works, and describe it." I cannot resist engaging that loaded premise. It is a thought that I've wanted - for some time - for someone to skilfully dissect and lay bare for easy comprehension. The closest I've come to seeing it, is the following - a concise and accessible yet well-rounded explanation of the relevance (or…

To me, the most interesting observation about this came from computability theory, of all places.

To some extent, in CS we study completely arbitrary constructs--Turing machines. Turing machines, indeed, are just tools: they're a simple model of a computing machine that makes sense just based on existing technology. Or perhaps we study the lambda calculus which, while less arbitrary than a Turing machine, is still obviously a tool created by a mathematician to perform a particular task. Or maybe we study existing programming languages which are even more arbitrary and contrived than Turing machines.

All these models? Obviously just tools created by people, often for very specific tasks.

But then a surprising fact emerges: no matter which tool we use, we can accomplish exactly the same things! The set of programs we can run is the same--these arbitrary models are all Turing-complete. Somehow, the notion of Turing completeness is extremely robust against all the different models of computation we've come up with.

In fact, it turns out that any "reasonable" model is going to have the same power. And in this case, "reasonable" actually is reasonable--the main restriction is that the model can only do a finite amount of work at each step.

So while any given model is arbitrary, the class of problems they can solve isn't. Rather, this class naturally emerges from the models. It's a natural property of computation rather than merely a human contrivance.

A similar thing happens when you look at programming and logic. We all know about Curry-Howard: it turns out that writing a program and writing a proof are analogous actions. You can map proof from a logic system to a program in a programming language and vice versa. While both logic systems and programming languages are somewhat arbitrary themselves, the fact that they're somehow equivalent hints at some underlying principle.

And that is why I'm fascinated by category theory, which seems to embody this underlying principle. It unifies proofs and programs with categories in what is very much like an extension of Curry-Howard. But then it goes further, and uses exactly the same model to talk about a whole bunch of different things: set theory, topology and even theoretical physics! (And, doubtless, countless more I'm simply unaware of.) While any of these fields are again just tools--including categories themselves--it seems that they all reflect some deep underlying structure.

Now, of course, I haven't addressed a very important point: is this "underlying structure" a reflection of the universe or just a reflection of the human mind? Is it perhaps a reflection of the underlying structure of reasoning itself?

Coming up with a reasonable answer to any of these questions is going to take a lot more thought and a lot more writing, but I lean towards the latter. The underlying ideas--the minimal starting points that are enough to uncover the structures I talked about--are far too simple to just be an artifact of the human mind which is itself wantonly complex.

So perhaps I am a Platonist myself. I've never thought about it in those terms, but it seems broadly consistent with my general ideas about life, the universe and everything.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#70

If a programmer locked himself away for 14 years and then emerged and announced he'd written a completely bug free OS, there would be skepticism. Code needs to be battle tested by other people to find the bugs. Mathematics is the same, to an extent; one guy working alone for 14 years is likely to have missed ideas and perspectives that could illuminate flaws in his reasoning. Maths bugs. If he's produced hundreds of…

Isn't one guy working alone for 6 years how Fermat's Last Theorem got solved?

It did have a flaw that got fixed later in collaboration, but most of the work was one individual's deep focus.

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