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The Paradox of the Proof

projectwordsworth.com

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Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#21
post #4

> For centuries, mathematicians have strived towards a single goal: to understand how the universe works, and describe it. Um, no. Mathematics itself has absolutely nothing to do with "describing the universe". Mathematics is purely abstract. It has no inherent relationship whatsoever with reality. That certain mathematical constructs can be used to model certain aspects of the real world is basically a lucky coincid…

I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe. David Deutsch has a method for ascertaining whether something can can be said to exist or not - ask whether it "kicks back" when you interact with it, in the sense that simulating the response of the thing you're considering in a totally convincing way would involve an effort as large as building a new universe for…

> I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that mathematical constructs are part of the universe.

Well, one could say that we "create" them using our minds, which certainly are, but that's deep into philosophical territory.

> Mathematics "exists" because giving someone the genuine experience of doing mathematics when they really weren't would involve a simulation of almost unfathomable complexity.

Sounds to me like a misapplication of the method - the complexity arises from simulating the response of a person to math, not from simulating math. By that standard, all fiction is "a very real part of the universe".

> So I don't think the article, which is very well written and researched, deserves the middlebrow "Um, no" scorn that you treated it to.

That concerned on one statement, not the entire article (which I found fascinating as well). Yes, I have to admit that this is rather smartassy, but I actially feel that, quite independant of this article, it is an important and amazing realization that few people make.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#22
post #4

> For centuries, mathematicians have strived towards a single goal: to understand how the universe works, and describe it. Um, no. Mathematics itself has absolutely nothing to do with "describing the universe". Mathematics is purely abstract. It has no inherent relationship whatsoever with reality. That certain mathematical constructs can be used to model certain aspects of the real world is basically a lucky coincid…

You are wrong. It is reality what drives mathematicians to work, not a pure abstraction. It is because of reality that maths is interesting. It is because of Geo-metry that algebra is so relevant. Not to speak of Calculus...

As someone with a degree in applied math, the pure abstract is more interesting than the applied. Applied math is like building really amazing and intricate sand castles on the beach. Pure math is like building the same sand castle, but in the sky and it's kept aloft purely by how beautiful it is, freed from constraints like "touches the ground" and "can support itself under gravity".

A lot of my friends feel the same way, with some of them specifically avoiding having "real world" applications of their work, as if that makes it an even better sand castle.

As to why I have an applied degree instead of doing pure math, numerical analysis makes a weird intuitive sense to me, and I figured building decent sand castles on the beach was better than making terrible sand castles in the sky that could barely hold themselves up. It also gets the grant money.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#23
God says...

in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

God says... Yea bark Suppose favour Forgive Athanasius waterest childish sign blesseth diversifiedst whoever slothful utterly forgetfulness expound visible Prophet occasioned tempt reproved Wheresoever restrainest check strengthenest Yes precedest recovered superior unperceived mutually done think I'm_feeling_nice_today withered

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want general results, you need to abstract away from standard preschool algebra and build up models that then let you get said general results. That might appear ‘weird’, but I don’t see how else you could get even to calculus, not to mention, for example, the algebra driving a sensible description of quantum mechanics or differential geometry. You called it a rant, but could you maybe still make a suggestion…

" you need to abstract away from standard preschool algebra and build up models that then let you get said general results" Yes, of course. " but could you maybe still make a suggestion on how to better think about problems?" And that's what I meant. Thinking about problems in a different way (but still provable, and still working in a similar way) For example, for Peano arithmetic you have that equality is symmetric…

And after you spent ten years reformulating basic maths in your fancy new logic, people will look at your papers and won’t understand a word, which appears to be more or less what happened to our poor protagonist in the OP.

Furthermore, I have to admit I don’t see the immediate advantage such a reconstruction would bring with it.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#25
post #8

Don't get me wrong, but from what I've seen of the world of science, the only people who exhibit this type of behaviour are frauds and delusional pseudoscientists. All the warning signs of pseudoscience are there: "I couldn't possibly explain it" as a response to lecture invitations, working on something for extended periods of time without sharing results, using lots of obscure terminology which is not standard for…

Also making claims about typical mathematicians and attempting to apply them to those already determined to be atypical is a bit dodgy in and of itself. Perelman was not your typical mathematician and he behaved atypically as well. I'm not certain but I don't think he travelled and lectured on his proof of the Poincaré Conjecture. He even turned down a sizable award size. Just because an atypical scientist behaves at…

Perelman did lecture on his proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman#Verification

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#26

  "For centuries, mathematicians have strived towards a
  single goal: to understand how the universe works, and
  describe it."
I cannot resist engaging that loaded premise. It is a thought that I've wanted - for some time - for someone to skilfully dissect and lay bare for easy comprehension.

The closest I've come to seeing it, is the following - a concise and accessible yet well-rounded explanation of the relevance (or lack thereof) of mathematics to the fabric of our reality.

Alex Knapp, a science writer at Forbes :

  In the midst of a rather interesting discussion of the
  notion of Aristotle’s Unmoved Mover, Leah Libresco went on
  a mild digression about the philosophy of mathematics that
  I couldn’t let go of, and feel compelled to respond to.
  
  She says:
   
    I take what is apparently a very Platonist position on  
    math.  I don’t treat it as the relationships that humans
    make between concepts we abstract from day to day life.  
    I don’t think I get the concept of ‘two-ness’ from
    seeing two apples, and then two people, and then two
    houses and abstracting away from the objects to see what
    they have in common.

    I think of mathematical truths existing prior to human 
    cognition and abstraction.  The relationship goes the
    other way.  The apples and the people and the houses are
    all similar insofar as they share in the form of two-
    ness, which exists independently of material things to
    exist in pairs or human minds to think about them.

  The notion that there’s something special about math –
  that it has some sort of metaphysical significance – only
  makes sense if you ignore the history of how we uncovered
  math to begin with. It was, despite Leah’s protestations,
  exactly just the abstraction of pairs and triplets and  
  quartets, etc. The earliest known mathematics appear to be
  attempts to quantify time and make calendars, with other
  early efforts directed towards accounting, astronomy, and
  engineering.

  Mathematics is nothing more and nothing less a tool that’s 
  useful for humans in solving particular problems. Math can
  be used to describe reality or construct useful fictions.
  For example, we know now that the spacetime we live in is
  non-Euclidian. But that doesn’t make Euclidian geometry
  useless for everyday life. Quite the contrary – it’s used
  every day. You can use mathematics to build models of
  reality that may not actually have any bearing on what’s
  real. For example, the complicated math used to describe
  how the planets moved in the Ptolemaic model of the solar
  system – where everything orbited in circles around the
  Earth – actually produced very accurate predictions. But
  it was also wrong. There aren’t actually trillions of
  physical dollars circulating in the economy – there are
  just symbols for them floating around.

  The bottom line is that human beings have brains capable
  of counting to high numbers and manipulating them, so we
  use mathematics as a useful tool to describe the world
  around us. But numbers and math themselves are no more
  real than the color blue – ‘blue’ is just what we tag a
  certain wavelength of light because of the way we perceive
  that wavelength. An alien intelligence that is blind has
  no use for the color blue. It might learn about light and
  the wavelengths of light and translate those concepts
  completely differently than we do.

  In the same way, since the only truly good mathematicians
  among the animals are ourselves, we assume that if we
  encounter other systems of intelligence that they’ll have
  the same concepts of math was we do. But there’s no
  evidence to base that assumption on. For all we know,
  there are much easier ways to describe physics than
  through complicated systems of equations, but our minds
  may not be capable of symbolically interpreting the world
  in a way that allows us to use those tools, any more than
  we’re capable of a tool that requires the use of a
  prehensile tail.

  Math is a useful descriptor of both real and fictional
  concepts. It’s very fun to play around with and its
  essential for understanding a lot of subjects. But it’s
  just a tool. Not a set of mystical entities.
This explanation is very satisfying yet disillusioning at the same time.

In short, his explanation allows for some (or a very large number of) mathematical truths (according to the consensus of mathematicians and what appeals to their logic) to be just that -- figments of numerical imagination that neatly sit in the confines of our logic.

Nothing necessitates all mathematical truths (much less conjectures) to be corresponding to some aspect (however minute or however large) of our reality.

Some truths might (purely out of happenstance), but nothing mandates that all math truths correspond to some facet of our physical reality.

So, some (or a lot of) math is just hocus pocus.

Non-mathematicians will never know owing to the very nature of peer-review and the consensus-building aspect of modern research and scholarship.

A few questions:

What other conclusions can be drawn if one were to find this explanation appealing?

Are there other explanations of the relationship between math and our reality, that you've found appealing?

Is there a consensus among mathematicians as to what higher-order math, essentially is in pursuit of or should be in pursuit of?

Is it an exercise of random shooting of darts hoping that some "mathematical truth" sticks and corresponds to some observable phenomenon?

Source:

Does Math Really Exist?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/01/21/does-math-r...

Edit: Clean-up and rewrite.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#27
post #4

> For centuries, mathematicians have strived towards a single goal: to understand how the universe works, and describe it. Um, no. Mathematics itself has absolutely nothing to do with "describing the universe". Mathematics is purely abstract. It has no inherent relationship whatsoever with reality. That certain mathematical constructs can be used to model certain aspects of the real world is basically a lucky coincid…

You are wrong. It is reality what drives mathematicians to work, not a pure abstraction. It is because of reality that maths is interesting. It is because of Geo-metry that algebra is so relevant. Not to speak of Calculus...

> It is reality what drives mathematicians to work, not a pure abstraction.

In general, no.

> It is because of reality that maths is interesting. It is because of Geo-metry that algebra is so relevant.

Perhaps to you, but not to most mathematicians, certainly not those working in academical settings. Have you ever looked at group theory or topology?

I don't think you've ever done the kind of math that mathematicians do. What you learn in school is not math, it's calculating. What mathematicians do is to invent constructs that have no basis in reality and prove statements about them, then come up with more constructs based on those statements, ad infinitum.

Sometimes those constructs may be designed to model real world problems, and getting funding is probably easier in those areas, but just as often the applicability is only discovered afterwards - or not at all.

The best example (because it's something we've actually all learned about) is complex numbers. They were first invented in teh 16th century and considered pointless and irrelevant at first. People soon discovered that they could be useful in proofs about non-complex numbers as well, but it took several centuries before they were found to be directly applicable in electrical engineering (many more applications have been discovered since).

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#28
In case anyone wants to give it a try, here is the paper: http://www.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~motizuki/Invitation%20to%20... and it looks like he is about to give a lecture in Tokyo: http://www.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~motizuki/news-english.html

And here is a FAQ on the theory: http://www.kurims.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~motizuki/FAQ%20on%20Inter-U...

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#29
post #26

"For centuries, mathematicians have strived towards a single goal: to understand how the universe works, and describe it." I cannot resist engaging that loaded premise. It is a thought that I've wanted - for some time - for someone to skilfully dissect and lay bare for easy comprehension. The closest I've come to seeing it, is the following - a concise and accessible yet well-rounded explanation of the relevance (or…

Have you read Bertrand Russell's 'Philosophy of Mathematics'? I had tried to read it awhile back. It discusses things in a similar tone.

Re: The Paradox of the Proof

#30
post #4

> For centuries, mathematicians have strived towards a single goal: to understand how the universe works, and describe it. Um, no. Mathematics itself has absolutely nothing to do with "describing the universe". Mathematics is purely abstract. It has no inherent relationship whatsoever with reality. That certain mathematical constructs can be used to model certain aspects of the real world is basically a lucky coincid…

The statement's a little hyperbolic, but I think you're misunderstanding the author's point. The point is that math is aimed at trying to build understanding in contrast to producing logically airtight proofs. The proofs are important to make sure that our understanding is right, but there's more to it than that.

I agree that's not the literal sentence you quoted, but it's definitely the theme of the article: according to many of the people cited, Mochizuki's shirking his responsibility by not explaining how to understand the result, regardless of whether the proof is correct or incorrect.

Caveat: I Am Not A Mathematician (IANAM)

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