Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out • Hacker News Board

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#61

Post by norabean » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 12:23 PM UTC

MrScruff wrote: post #49

As a non-American who occasionally attends conferences in the States, this entire incident is rather frightening. I really could not imagine a similar reaction in Europe. It reminds me of the situation last year where a British ruby conference had to be abandoned after negative publicity resulting from tweets, made by non-attending Americans about the entirely white male lineup of speakers. I don't think this cultura…

You're not too far from right, but you're not fully right either. America is very much a spot where anyone can sue or whine and get people fired.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#62

Post by ColdFingers » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 12:25 PM UTC

chrisfs wrote: post #33

ianschenck wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please explain, because it seems obvious to you but not to me, how a crass joke about male anatomy is inherently anti-female. Can you also please explain why going public was the best immediate course of action. Lastly, would you have been offended if the joke came out of a female's mouth (as asked below)? I've been in a situation where a young female engineer was in a very abused situation, and it took me a…

I am NOT the OP but I think the answers to your questions are pretty clear. Crass jokes about in the anatomical parts male or female are not appropriate in a professional setting where you don't know everybody who is sitting nearby. There's no need to go into complex discussions about sexual or power dynamics. Immediate action is needed because unlike the workplace there would be no opportunity to speak with these pe…

In that case, the joke should be called out for being inappropriate period, to men or women. A particular gender needs not be mentioned.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#63

Post by norabean » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 12:42 PM UTC

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #57

Xylakant wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see here is that you snapped a picture and posted it in public - being prosecutor, judge, jury and executor in one person. That's not how things should work out. There's two sides of the story and I think it would have been better if a neutral party heard both sides instead of public summary execution. The guys conduct may not have been appropriate, but IMHO yours was not as well. Had you done all of th…

Sorry but the company were judge, jury and executor, not her. If you report a crime to the police and as a result the person gets sent to prison did you send them to prison? Of course not. She reported something that happened (which the person in question doesn't deny) - that's a reasonable thing to do. The neutral party you ask for should then be the employer who can listen to both sides of the story and work out th…

> Sorry but the company were judge, jury and executor, not her.

What would you do in this day if you were a company? No one wants to be dealing with a potential major sexual harassment case ever. This country is based on such limited knowledge of how to communicate with one another, it is upsetting. This post upsets me because she just sounds like a typical American person in that she used others to attack someone, rather than talking to him. Judging by his response, he was not some crazy college kid with aggression problems that would have physically attacked her.

The tech community is not perfect, but I think people in tech are far more open to talking through things than any other spots. SF especially. Maybe these people are not from the bay area,.. I don't know.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#64

Post by norabean » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 12:46 PM UTC

dodyg wrote: post #48

jorgenev wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How fragile are women, really? It seems amazing to me that they don't all just shatter the day they are born (from what I read on the internet at least).

Your comment is stupid. Sexual jokes made by strangers create a hostile environment for women. Don't do it. Period. If you are among friends, go crazy and nobody gives a damn.

I'm on accord with you, but not accord with the choice to have added photos of the people and never talked to them. I feel this is a tough situation now that the guy lost his job. Is his job loss been verified though? I'd be curious to know that...I mean 3 kids!? I can't imagine.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#65

Post by Xylakant » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 12:46 PM UTC

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #57

Xylakant wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see here is that you snapped a picture and posted it in public - being prosecutor, judge, jury and executor in one person. That's not how things should work out. There's two sides of the story and I think it would have been better if a neutral party heard both sides instead of public summary execution. The guys conduct may not have been appropriate, but IMHO yours was not as well. Had you done all of th…

Sorry but the company were judge, jury and executor, not her. If you report a crime to the police and as a result the person gets sent to prison did you send them to prison? Of course not. She reported something that happened (which the person in question doesn't deny) - that's a reasonable thing to do. The neutral party you ask for should then be the employer who can listen to both sides of the story and work out th…

No, if I witness a scene on the road, take a picture and post it online, then I'm judge, jury and executor. I might be right or might be wrong in my assertion that a crime has happened - but that's not for me to decide. If due to me posting said picture somebody looses his job or gets into any kind of trouble with a lynch mob, that's the consequence of my actions. And if I'm wrong, or overreacted in the course of me prosecuting a perceived crime, then I'm at fault (and potentially liable).

Now, if I take said picture and hand it to the police, they investigate, then I've done the right thing: The justice system gets to work and the decision about the appropriate punishment is made by a neutral party in due process. This is how we handle things since we've become a civilized society.

Don't get me wrong: The OP may be right and the guys made inappropriate jokes - but she's at least partially wrong as well. She didn't give them any chance to hear their side, maybe clear up any misunderstanding - instead she called for the lynch mob. That's the point I'm criticizing. The way I see it is that she's to blame as well. It's a pity since she's right in what she wanted to achieve, but her means didn't justify that goal.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#66

Post by Tyrannosaurs » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 12:49 PM UTC

norabean wrote: post #63

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but the company were judge, jury and executor, not her. If you report a crime to the police and as a result the person gets sent to prison did you send them to prison? Of course not. She reported something that happened (which the person in question doesn't deny) - that's a reasonable thing to do. The neutral party you ask for should then be the employer who can listen to both sides of the story and work out th…

> Sorry but the company were judge, jury and executor, not her. What would you do in this day if you were a company? No one wants to be dealing with a potential major sexual harassment case ever. This country is based on such limited knowledge of how to communicate with one another, it is upsetting. This post upsets me because she just sounds like a typical American person in that she used others to attack someone, r…

This doesn't feel like it's a major sexual harassment case in the making but if it is then the damage has already been done and sacking someone can't remove that liability.

I hope I'd also look at the cost and difficulty of recruiting decent developers, the opportunity to possibly salvage the PR situation (which I think a constructive approach might get us, unlike sacking someone) and the fact that there seems to be genuine remorse and that the individual in question seems like a reasonable guy who did an unreasonable thing rather than some arsehole.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#67

Post by Tyrannosaurs » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 1:18 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #65

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but the company were judge, jury and executor, not her. If you report a crime to the police and as a result the person gets sent to prison did you send them to prison? Of course not. She reported something that happened (which the person in question doesn't deny) - that's a reasonable thing to do. The neutral party you ask for should then be the employer who can listen to both sides of the story and work out th…

No, if I witness a scene on the road, take a picture and post it online, then I'm judge, jury and executor. I might be right or might be wrong in my assertion that a crime has happened - but that's not for me to decide. If due to me posting said picture somebody looses his job or gets into any kind of trouble with a lynch mob, that's the consequence of my actions. And if I'm wrong, or overreacted in the course of me…

So once the information is public the person who publishes it responsible for any and all consequences resulting (even if what he or she posts is factual)?

I agree that it wasn't the best way to handle it (at least publishing the photo wasn't, I'm fine with the rest) but that's different to being held responsible for all actions that follow.

The person in question has responsibility for what they did, the company has responsibility for what they did. There are many points during this whole process where the chain can be broken, not just one.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#68

Post by loudcode » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 3:02 PM UTC

colabug wrote: post #31

ianschenck wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't see how "large dongle" is sexist. I'm glad you take the time to re-educate those around you. It's probably the hardest thing to do, but ultimately the best way forward for everyone. Maybe I'm overly optimistic on the ability of education though. What I find really suspect is her feeling like and calling herself a hero. Her reference to herself as "Joan of Arc". Also going public immediately. I have been…

It creates a sexualized environment, here's a good article: http://geekfeminism.org/2012/10/01/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-... It's hard to understand the "hero" feeling unless you've been quiet and avoided speaking out on similar (and often bigger) events. It feels good to stand up for your fellow females and community, even if you get negative public attention for it. I think more things big and small should be addres…

Who decides what's the real abusive situation? I suspect the victim. It's not possible for a third person to objectively know, it can only be guessed in which case some kind of "decision" is necessary. Sorry, but what is a bystander to do? You are upset because he decided something was abusive and acted. I guess you would be happier with inaction? I don't understand.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#69

Post by loudcode » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 3:06 PM UTC

ColdFingers wrote: post #62

chrisfs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am NOT the OP but I think the answers to your questions are pretty clear. Crass jokes about in the anatomical parts male or female are not appropriate in a professional setting where you don't know everybody who is sitting nearby. There's no need to go into complex discussions about sexual or power dynamics. Immediate action is needed because unlike the workplace there would be no opportunity to speak with these pe…

In that case, the joke should be called out for being inappropriate period, to men or women. A particular gender needs not be mentioned.

I think that's a problem here. An offensive joke is being dressed up as a gender issue. There isn't a gender issue here, there's just a maturity issue with everyone involved.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#70

Post by Xylakant » Tue, Mar 19, 2013, 3:46 PM UTC

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #67

Xylakant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if I witness a scene on the road, take a picture and post it online, then I'm judge, jury and executor. I might be right or might be wrong in my assertion that a crime has happened - but that's not for me to decide. If due to me posting said picture somebody looses his job or gets into any kind of trouble with a lynch mob, that's the consequence of my actions. And if I'm wrong, or overreacted in the course of me…

So once the information is public the person who publishes it responsible for any and all consequences resulting (even if what he or she posts is factual)? I agree that it wasn't the best way to handle it (at least publishing the photo wasn't, I'm fine with the rest) but that's different to being held responsible for all actions that follow. The person in question has responsibility for what they did, the company has…

The person who publishes does not bear all blame - every actor gets his own share for his own decisions. However, the contrary is not true either - the fact that other actors made their own decisions does not absolve the person who publishes from all responsibility. So yes, for her own actions, for publishing the picture, she shares the blame. She chose the nuclear option and decided to judge.