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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#41

Post by zshprompt »

chrisfs wrote: post #33
ianschenck wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please explain, because it seems obvious to you but not to me, how a crass joke about male anatomy is inherently anti-female. Can you also please explain why going public was the best immediate course of action. Lastly, would you have been offended if the joke came out of a female's mouth (as asked below)? I've been in a situation where a young female engineer was in a very abused situation, and it took me a…

I am NOT the OP but I think the answers to your questions are pretty clear. Crass jokes about in the anatomical parts male or female are not appropriate in a professional setting where you don't know everybody who is sitting nearby. There's no need to go into complex discussions about sexual or power dynamics. Immediate action is needed because unlike the workplace there would be no opportunity to speak with these pe…

sure, but taking their photo and posting it as step 1 is not the action of someone being brave

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#42

Post by zshprompt »

bradhe wrote: post #2

Wait wait, so this chick finds something that she thinks is inappropriate, takes a picture of the "offenders," and puts it on Twitter? Even if the comment in question was derogatory towards women in the first place (it wasn't, unless sex and big dicks are automagically offensive to women), how are people OK with that? BTW, this quote is gold: > As an advocate for digital equality, my actions today at #pycon made me f…

funny story, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake. They wanted to get rid of her for sometime but the actual crime she was convicted of was literally "wearing male clothes"

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#43

Post by nashequilibrium »

mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

After looking at Adria's vague explanation, you should show your employer her blogpost because "large dongle" is not sexual harassment. This seems more like a case of someone so deep in a cause that they have lost sight of what the core idea of the cause is. This is very overreaching and I feel this way after reading her blogpost, before I thought her complaint had merit but not now.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#44

Post by Xylakant »

adriarichards wrote: post #27
mr-hank wrote: post #23

Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes…

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

The problem I see here is that you snapped a picture and posted it in public - being prosecutor, judge, jury and executor in one person. That's not how things should work out. There's two sides of the story and I think it would have been better if a neutral party heard both sides instead of public summary execution. The guys conduct may not have been appropriate, but IMHO yours was not as well. Had you done all of this without posting the picture and let the organizers resolve this in a professional manner I'd be totally on your side, but the way things played out I'm not.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#45

Post by Xylakant »

nashequilibrium wrote: post #3
bradhe wrote: post #2

Wait wait, so this chick finds something that she thinks is inappropriate, takes a picture of the "offenders," and puts it on Twitter? Even if the comment in question was derogatory towards women in the first place (it wasn't, unless sex and big dicks are automagically offensive to women), how are people OK with that? BTW, this quote is gold: > As an advocate for digital equality, my actions today at #pycon made me f…

I think this is becoming a much harder area for guys to navigate, in the sense that, are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? I don't know the answer, hopefully there will be more dialogue around this so that everyone can understand general etiquette rules when in such an environment. I believe that some guys can just be dicks but some might just not be aware that they are being offensive.

> are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present?

I'd say so - but that doesn't answer the harder question: What is a sexual joke? That matter is open to interpretation and that's where public shaming becomes a problem: The individual that's the most easily offended gets to lay the blame.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#46

Post by Argorak »

ternaryoperator wrote: post #5
nashequilibrium wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is becoming a much harder area for guys to navigate, in the sense that, are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? I don't know the answer, hopefully there will be more dialogue around this so that everyone can understand general etiquette rules when in such an environment. I believe that some guys can just be dicks but some might just not be aware that they are being offensive.

> are all sexual jokes off the table if females are present? Honestly, I wish they were off the table regardless of who is in attendance. They're rarely funny, and they add nothing to the conversation.

Full ACK.

Sexual jokes can be very funny if told correctly, in a non-discriminating fashion, in the right context to the right people. That also means that they can backfire horribly, especially if random people around. To me, thats not even a question of sexism, many feel uncomfortable if that happens, regardless of gender.

An open space conference certainly never is the right place. Also, cheap jokes about "dongles" are never worth it... please, keep it classy...

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#47

Post by antihero »

colabug wrote: post #28
ianschenck wrote: post #24

What just blows my mind, is that Adria keeps referring to this as an issue against females. The comment (as clarified by the terrible perpetrator elsewhere) was about a part of male physiology and not directed towards any person, male or female. She just keeps repeating how this is some sort of female issue. I frankly don't see the connection. I do see how some puritanical folks could be upset, because you know, sex…

Cards Against Humanity is irrelevant to the issue. Also it's not about being puritanical and easily offended. Being a male geek/dork/nerd/outcast in school doesn't excuse behavior that causes a hostile, sexualized, or otherwise unwelcoming environment. I, a female geek, was an outcast too and participated in many of the activities you mention, yet I came out mature. You claim that male engineers (which you referred t…

Forking and dongle jokes are benign. Unless you are basically a mormon, I'm not sure how being a woman gives you a "right" to be offended by something like this.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#48

Post by dodyg »

jorgenev wrote: post #39
chrisfs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am NOT the OP but I think the answers to your questions are pretty clear. Crass jokes about in the anatomical parts male or female are not appropriate in a professional setting where you don't know everybody who is sitting nearby. There's no need to go into complex discussions about sexual or power dynamics. Immediate action is needed because unlike the workplace there would be no opportunity to speak with these pe…

How fragile are women, really? It seems amazing to me that they don't all just shatter the day they are born (from what I read on the internet at least).

Your comment is stupid. Sexual jokes made by strangers create a hostile environment for women. Don't do it. Period.

If you are among friends, go crazy and nobody gives a damn.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#49

Post by MrScruff »

As a non-American who occasionally attends conferences in the States, this entire incident is rather frightening. I really could not imagine a similar reaction in Europe. It reminds me of the situation last year where a British ruby conference had to be abandoned after negative publicity resulting from tweets, made by non-attending Americans about the entirely white male lineup of speakers.

I don't think this cultural difference is because women and minorities are more oppressed here. I think it's more a result of the simplistic view some Americans take on issues of discrimination.

Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe people do feel oppressed here and there's just less of a culture of complaining. I'm not convinced though.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#50

Post by MrScruff »

colabug wrote: post #15
callahad wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quietly informing the authorities does little. As an aside, every PyCon attendee agreed to a code of conduct during registration, and the conference staff are available to address and remedy violations of that code.

I appreciate that PyCon has a good policy and applaud all conferences that make an effort to make their conference a safe place. Through a mix of official (staff) and community enforcement (tweets/public outcry), one day it will be truly welcoming and all members will live up to the code of conduct.

'Be careful about what you say when at PyCon. Otherwise someone might hear you, report you to the authorities and post your photo on the internet resulting in you losing your job'.

You have a truly strange concept of welcoming.

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