Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims' • Hacker News Board

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#61

Post by ricree » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 10:03 AM UTC

neya wrote: post #30

"By 2009 I was convinced that none of the existing free software communities could create an experience that could challenge the existing proprietary leaders," Shuttleworth wrote, "and so, if we were serious about the dream of a free software norm, we would have to lead." If Unity is the outcome of Canonical's lead, then I'm sorry to say that they're doing it wrong. I want you to download Ubuntu 10.04/10.10 and compa…

>I sincerely feel someone should take the 10.04 and spin it off into a new better OS, polish it and give it back to the community

Do you have any particular objections with Mint? It's what I went to after 10.04 (well, after a couple months trying out 12.04 and deciding it definitely wasn't for me).

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#62

Post by charonn0 » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 10:14 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #54

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not sustainable because the type of people who are generally attracted to something like Linux are the very people Mark just insulted. The facts are clear: the average computer user doesn't care about an operating system that much. It's a means to an end. Most people are just using their OS as a portal to access media anyway so they really don't care. Yes Canonical/Ubuntu has brought in a lot of new users but th…

He is searching for the widest audience possible...and that is the soccer moms like you mention, not the nerds that care about the 1% of features 99% of their target audience had no need for. He is basically saying that it doesn't work to have 100k people's input from all backgrounds and opinions on a project like Ubuntu because nothing will ever get accomplished. Which is a perfectly reasonable assumption in my view…

> not the nerds that care about the 1% of features 99% of their target audience had no need for.

What features, exactly, comprise this unimportant 1%? Why aren't they important? And what portion of the remaining 99% was written by the non-nerds?

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#63

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 10:28 AM UTC

ihsw wrote: post #26

nwienert wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the parent comment will be downvoted, but I'll reply anyway. I'd like to hear how this "sucks". One could argue they may track you, invasion of privacy or that it's "just the beginning" and will lead to more adware. Those are what I'd call minor complaints. You can say you think it looks bad, or that it slows down your system, or that you'd would never use it. Those are even more minor as you can uninstall it…

It sucks because it stinks of authoritarianism and selfishness. How do users benefit? How does the community benefit? Why are you trying to justify that users should be glad that they're being spied on and spammed?

[deleted]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#64

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 10:33 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #54

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not sustainable because the type of people who are generally attracted to something like Linux are the very people Mark just insulted. The facts are clear: the average computer user doesn't care about an operating system that much. It's a means to an end. Most people are just using their OS as a portal to access media anyway so they really don't care. Yes Canonical/Ubuntu has brought in a lot of new users but th…

He is searching for the widest audience possible...and that is the soccer moms like you mention, not the nerds that care about the 1% of features 99% of their target audience had no need for. He is basically saying that it doesn't work to have 100k people's input from all backgrounds and opinions on a project like Ubuntu because nothing will ever get accomplished. Which is a perfectly reasonable assumption in my view…

[deleted]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#65

Post by Flimm » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 10:38 AM UTC

aroman wrote: post #7

As someone who has been an active contributor to desktop Linux in the past, and particularly very close to Ubuntu (I was sponsored to attend UDS-O), I have to say that I am happy Shuttleworth is finally taking this much needed stand. I can absolutely understand the blowback to his sentiments, because really, the diversity of use and mindset in the Linux community is one of its defining characteristics. But frankly, h…

This is actually a response to some Ubuntu contributors very publicly leaving the project, and not to criticism from users. This is the blog post that started it off:

http://doctormo.org/2013/03/06/ubuntu-membership-2/

And here some the many responses in the past two days (remember, these are Ubuntu members, not random users), many of them agree that there's something wrong with the Ubuntu community of contributors:

http://randall.executiv.es/ubuntu-stage-next

http://blog.pault.ag/post/44821301540/ubuntu-the-community

http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/03/08/thoughts-on-recent-commu...

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1235

http://apachelog.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/divisive-leadershi...

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1232

http://smartboyhw.tk/wordpress_smartboyhw/?p=28

http://linuxgrandma.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/thoughts-and-worr...

http://philipballew.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/confessions-of-...

http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=7670

http://ftbeowulf.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/freedom-and-commun...

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#66

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 10:40 AM UTC

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #53

res0nat0r wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? I don't see any evidence of mass users leaving Ubuntu anytime lately. Only minor whining on nerd forums about the default desktop and other quibbles.

It's not sustainable because the type of people who are generally attracted to something like Linux are the very people Mark just insulted. The facts are clear: the average computer user doesn't care about an operating system that much. It's a means to an end. Most people are just using their OS as a portal to access media anyway so they really don't care. Yes Canonical/Ubuntu has brought in a lot of new users but th…

[deleted]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#67

Post by JeremyMorgan » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 10:43 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #54

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not sustainable because the type of people who are generally attracted to something like Linux are the very people Mark just insulted. The facts are clear: the average computer user doesn't care about an operating system that much. It's a means to an end. Most people are just using their OS as a portal to access media anyway so they really don't care. Yes Canonical/Ubuntu has brought in a lot of new users but th…

He is searching for the widest audience possible...and that is the soccer moms like you mention, not the nerds that care about the 1% of features 99% of their target audience had no need for. He is basically saying that it doesn't work to have 100k people's input from all backgrounds and opinions on a project like Ubuntu because nothing will ever get accomplished. Which is a perfectly reasonable assumption in my view…

You make a good point, but the OSX comparison doesn't work. Apple practically invented the smooth user experience and they design based on feedback and studies, not being arrogant and forcing change for the sake of change.

When you boil it down, it's pretty simple. Unity sucks, taking away the users ability to configure sucks, but they've made the stand and don't want to back down because it's the only way they can differentiate themselves from other distributions. Why? Because different, not because better.

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#68

Post by JeremyMorgan » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 10:44 AM UTC

mikevm wrote: post #36

GhotiFish wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically saying the linux community and their mindset are antithetical to modern computing. What a massively backhanded insult. Yet also a tragically true statement. The world is flying towards Sim City always on DRM with open arms, and mark shuttleworth wants to lead the charge? Fine. Coddled computing for everyone. For god sakes, A pox on the people who actually choose to use Amazon Linux.

No one's forcing you to use Ubuntu. Don't like it? Move along.

That's exactly what most smart people have done. How does that help Canonical when that happens?

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#69

Post by taliesinb » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 11:11 AM UTC

aroman wrote: post #7

As someone who has been an active contributor to desktop Linux in the past, and particularly very close to Ubuntu (I was sponsored to attend UDS-O), I have to say that I am happy Shuttleworth is finally taking this much needed stand. I can absolutely understand the blowback to his sentiments, because really, the diversity of use and mindset in the Linux community is one of its defining characteristics. But frankly, h…

I completely agree. This kind of pivot will slough off some Ubuntu enthusiasts and contributors, and upset some users, but I suspect that we'll all be looking back in 5 years and saying how obvious this move was.

Why am I so confident it'll actually work? Canonical has done a great job for many years on managing the sprawling world of integrating multiple upstream OSS projects that weren't under its control.

That's just a totally different thing from how you manage the development and integration of commercial software. What Canonical has done is much, much harder. And in my view, people who have done that can do anything -- beginning with the long-term technology planning, partnership building, and platform integration work that their vision requires.

That vision, by the way, is I think one that most of us want: 1) a 'smart device' OS, suitable for many hardware channels 2) a desktop OS tuned for content creation and collaboration 3) open cloud infrastructure to provide services to 1 and 2

For me, the single most important outcome of this vision is using Ubuntu to drive an educational revolution in the developing world. That requires Ubuntu to be in the hands of a wide and diverse community of developers, educators, scientists, engineers, artists, artisans, activists, policymakers, and hobbyists interested in such things, and who have total freedom to hack them.

That will not happen if "Linux" still means your dad's 90s desktop OS.

Go Shuttleworth!

Re: Mark Shuttleworth: Canonical leads Ubuntu, not 'your whims'

#70

Post by phaus » Sat, Mar 09, 2013, 11:16 AM UTC

>>There are lots of pure community distro's. And wow, they are full of politics, spite, frustration, venality and disappointment.

Soo... It is a community distro? Because Ubuntu sure has plenty of that.

>>To Shuttleworth, Ubuntu isn't about catering to hobbyists, but about building an open source OS that is so compelling that free software becomes the norm, rather than the exception.

There's nothing compelling about implementing advertising directly into the operating system. I was just starting get used to Unity, and then Canonical did something that makes it impossible to trust them about anything.